Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 17:53:56 UTC No. 16068571

>>16068569
It's not the same ship, just the same design. Why do you think ships in a fleet of the exact same design and specs have different names?

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 17:57:04 UTC No. 16068585

>>16068571
>It's not the same ship
oh dear. atoms are not identical, some are more special than others

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 17:57:48 UTC No. 16068588

>>16068569
The actual solution is that it's a tedious argument around semantics.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 17:58:17 UTC No. 16068590

>>16068585
Oh dear, he doesn't understand perception of matter.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 17:58:44 UTC No. 16068594

>>16068588
it's scared chimp brains. they'll forever screech about it

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:00:22 UTC No. 16068600

>>16068590
if you'd replace my zippo lighter with an atomically identical one it's the exact same lighter. atoms are telling a fucking story you fucking dimwit. they are the paper on which the story is written, the paper doesn't matter you utter imbecile

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:02:33 UTC No. 16068605

>>16068600
You are a midwit for thinking any separate entity has the exact same composition down to the atom.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:03:39 UTC No. 16068610

>>16068605
well the functional resolution for who we are is not at atomic scale.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:04:40 UTC No. 16068612

The question of Theseus' ship is a faulty one. It ignores the one way direction of Time's Arrow. The ship of today CAN NOT be the ship of tomorrow. Replace all the parts, replace none, simply NOT THE SAME SHIP!

Theseus on the first day of the year IS NOT the Theseus on the second day of the year let alone the last day! Every grain of sand that falls through the hour glass moves us forwards in a way we can NEVER GO BACK. Hence you will never be the same as you were, nor will the ship be. The question of parts and replacement are moot at best and a distraction in reality.

You, me, Theseus, and the boat are all "dynamic characters" in this story and we move from Point A to Point Z as our story is told, parts are replaced, some parts lost forever, and even never before seen "upgrades" are added. This is the nature of progress and the nature of time acting upon space. We do not argue over if Theseus is Theseus because he has a fake hip or a wig, these are all just words in the book titled "Theseus". The replacement, lose, and improvement of parts ARE THE SHIP! The ship, and Theseus, is a COLLECTION OF THESE EVENTS AND THE RESULTING ACTIONS!

It's all faulty logic that seeks to ignore and explain away the only permenant force in The Universe.....change. Change is the only guarantee we have in life, that tomorrow will not be today and you will never be who you were before.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:07:17 UTC No. 16068617

>>16068610
So functionality versus composition is what you're getting after, stupid? Is a 4runner and a Tundra the exact same thing if they both have the same function?

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:07:19 UTC No. 16068618

>>16068600
Incorrect. That's like saying two identical copies of Lord of the Rings are the same object, they are not. I could light one copy on fire and the other wouldn't be burned. Hence despite all the atoms being identical the two objects are not the same object.

In this example your lighter is somewhere else and an identical replacement is in your hand. It's not your lighter. You lighter could be crushed off screen and you'd still have a lighter in your hand....hence not the same thing.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:09:38 UTC No. 16068624

>>16068569
the solution is that identity is not static over time. after all, why would it be?

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:23:32 UTC No. 16068651

>>16068617
>Is a 4runner and a Tundra the exact same thing if they both have the same function?
as far as (You) are concerned yeah kinda. you don't even need a human form. so in a more advanced way (for your feeble brain) that's exactly what it's like. but that would make you seethe even harder
>>16068618
>That's like saying two identical copies of Lord of the Rings are the same object
they literally say the exact same thing you fucking idiot. if the resolution is not a micron scale ink diffusing into the paper structure then yes, if resolution is informational level then indeed they are literally identical and interchangeable.
>your lighter
my lighter has dings and scratches, I remember when some happened. I can pick it out of a bunch of similarly looking ones because of the information encoded in its structure. I wouldn't even know it's a perfect clone, I wouldn't even care. you might be computationally limited in understanding the situation, like deeper. you may be a brainlet and there's shit you don't NEED to understand, just trust others smarter than you.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:43:37 UTC No. 16068696

>>16068569
The only question anyone should care about is how to continue being after the ship is broken down.

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 18:46:24 UTC No. 16068701

indeed

Anonymous at Mon, 11 Mar 2024 20:39:09 UTC No. 16068854

>>16068651
>Yeah kinda
The essence of philosophy

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 01:07:52 UTC No. 16069249

>>16068854
kinda in the sense that it's not the best analogue as example. it diminishes your uniqueness in the sense that all cars serve the very same function.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 02:22:55 UTC No. 16069328

>>16068569
Wait til you figure out the same is true for humans, and there is no such thing as (You). It follows that consciousness does not simply exist between birth and death, as there is no (You) to which the conscious experiences belong. It is all just atoms. Death does not exist. You are here forever.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 02:59:41 UTC No. 16069377

>>16068569
The solution is simple. At the point where you can't take all the original parts and build a functional ship, it's not the original ship anymore. ez

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 03:00:58 UTC No. 16069380

>>16068605
>I-I can differentiate between one electron and another
>trust me bro, quantum mechanics is WRONG

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 03:02:00 UTC No. 16069381

There isn't really a solution exactly. It's a thought provoking question that forces you to consider what makes a ship a distinct object.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 03:05:13 UTC No. 16069385

say you get your brain backed up, and you just randomly die for whatever reason, two days later. so then you get rebuilt from backup.
second version you just hit your head and fully forget last two days, completely gone.
what's the difference between the two?

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 03:12:10 UTC No. 16069395

>>16069385
You cannot exactly rebuild biological structures that big. There will be differences in brain chemistry etc.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 03:13:24 UTC No. 16069397

>>16069395
suppose you didn't have breakfast

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 09:04:34 UTC No. 16069741

A solution which fits the intuitive sense of object "sameness" is this:
If a part of an object is replaced such that the unreplaced parts comprise a supermajority (~75%) of the volume, then that part is incorporated into the object and the object is considered the same. Therefore, replacing the hull all at once would lead to the ship being different, but any given ship component can be replaced to keep the same ship. This fits the intuition as gradual changes are often considered to keep the same object (eg changing a tire) while abrupt and complete changes such as exploding a car and rebuilding it make the objects different.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 09:45:48 UTC No. 16069772

>>16069381
>It's a thought provoking question that forces you to consider what makes a ship a distinct object.
It's not really. It's more about continuity of identity and whether or not identity arises from a part or combination of parts. There is "always" a distinct ship in the thought experiment (unless you hold that a specific part of a ship constitutes the actual ship while the rest is just attachments to that part which I don't think anyone does). The problem is you end up with 2.

Anyway, I don't find the thought experiment particularly "thought provoking" at all (especially Plutarch's construction which doesn't even bear mentioning). Up until the assembly of the second ship, the identity of the first wouldn't be in doubt. Hell, if you didn't know of the existence of the second ship, you still wouldn't doubt the identity of the first even after it were completed. Identity isn't an inherent aspect of an object. It's a construction of reference. The second ship might be "a" Ship of Theseus, but it is not "the" Ship of Theseus (although you could fairly say it "was").

You can do more interesting shit by expanding the thought experiment to two ships trading parts or a ship cut in half and built into two ships, with either case involving partial or full disassemblies.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 14:01:23 UTC No. 16070058

>>16069772
People are used to the idea of interacting with functionally identical shit, ships, cars. But they are not used to interacting with identical humans (down to personality level), like clones. Or art. Cloning the Mona Lisa would massively reduce its value. For all intents and purposes both would be the same thing, but somehow that feels wrong to us. In this sense the ship example is not the best.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 03:28:23 UTC No. 16071358

>>16069385
this is what gets me the most with the whole idea.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 03:57:40 UTC No. 16071374

>>16069385
>Not a single iota of data/matter gained or lost in initial backup
I don't believe you.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:48:09 UTC No. 16072038

>>16071374
depends on scanning resolution for brain. your body can technically be reconstructed just from DNA sample.
the issue is stranger, we constantly lose bits and pieces along the way. mentally speaking, memories and stuff.
also technically speaking there is a difference, when you bang your head and forget last two days your whole body is 2 days older, than being rebuilt from 2 day old backup. so there's also that. but (Your) experience would be the same, you'd see the doctor telling you that the reason you feel fuzzy is the last 2 days from your experience are gone.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:17:22 UTC No. 16072267

>>16068600
>it's the exact same lighter.
Why?

>>16068618
>are the same object, they are not.
why?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:21:59 UTC No. 16072281

>>16072267
>Why?
literally because atoms have no unique identity. if atomically identical you have no (so far discovered) way of telling which is which in a double blind experiment. it's about the information the atoms store in that configuration, you can replace them with identical atoms and it's still the same thing.
what if I start replacing each atom one by on in my "original" lighter? rip one off and put another identical one in its place. at which point in this process does my lighter become a copy of my "original" lighter? and why that particular value? explain, you should be able to.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 19:24:00 UTC No. 16072630

Three monks were looking around. They see a flag pole. First one says, flag is moving. The second one say, no tha flag isn't moving, the wind is moving. The third one says, no no no, the mind is moving.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 19:38:32 UTC No. 16072665

>>16068569
nothing actually exists except in relation to other relations