Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 07:20:02 UTC No. 16069661

>You can measure something continuous discreetly (with finite memory)

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 07:25:40 UTC No. 16069666

>>16069632
reality is neither a machine nor does it compute

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 08:09:25 UTC No. 16069686

>>16069661
>>16069666
keep coping retards

space is discrete

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:19:03 UTC No. 16069817

>>16069666
sorry chud, not only is reality a machine, its a Turing machine with knowable states and transitions.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 10:31:22 UTC No. 16069823

>>16069666
Funny how every single physical law we know of is computable. I guess you must just posess some secret knowledge of the universe that disproves this, lucky you!

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:42:52 UTC No. 16069928

>>16069823
>if I call the big black box a television then that means reality calls it a television

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:02:05 UTC No. 16070515

>>16069928
that doesnt refute what he said dumbass

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:21:57 UTC No. 16070542

>>16069823
This is an impressively stupid take.

The "laws" as you describe them are inferential models written by humans which describe the behavior of material objects to the best of our ability. Of course the "laws" as we write them will be computable, we are intentionally modeling the state transitions of objects via the best computable approximations we have.

You might as well write a sentence saying "Of course all of the words in English use Latin letters." Yes, of course this is true because we wrote English to be a language which is formed of Latin symbols!

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:24:37 UTC No. 16070547

>>16069666
>reality is neither a machine nor does it compute
what the fuck did the processor in your device do, when you posted this? what do you mean? it's literally fucking nature, atoms bunched together, computing shit.
what
the
fuck

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:27:57 UTC No. 16070551

>>16070547
"reality contains machines that compute" does not imply "reality is a machine that computes."

Computation is a human construction for problem solving. It has intention, parameters for success and failure.

When we model the state evolution of a continuous time system (e.g., current on a wire), we need to compute the charge density or the potential on through the circuit if we want to model its behavior. The universe doesn't need to "compute" the behavior of the current in the wire anymore than the molecules of air need to compute their state before they are blown by the wind.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:30:19 UTC No. 16070559

>>16069632
Why, is this a simulation or something?

Also how would you prove discreteness, especially before a unified theory?

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:31:02 UTC No. 16070562

>>16070551
that's how an analog computer works, it effortlessly computes shit. like addition. join two wires together and it automatically sums the current. that's literally computation anon. it just happens

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:38:00 UTC No. 16070570

>>16070562
> Join two wires together and it automatically sums the current. That's literally computation.

What you are describing is missing the intentionality part of computation. A human who joins two wires together in an adding junction can use the material mechanism of current addition to compute.

The wires don't need to compute to handle the interaction. They do it naturally without the "problem" to which the "computation" is the solution.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:38:53 UTC No. 16070573

If space is discrete, what are those discrete unit made of?

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:39:51 UTC No. 16070574

>>16070573
> What are those discrete units made of

Autism. The pixels of space-time are constructed of pure unadulterated autism.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:43:00 UTC No. 16070580

>>16070570
does your brain always naturally compute without having a problem to which that computation is the solution? as far as we know we're from here, we're the products of this universe, and hence "nature". our brains seem to compute shit, how to avoid things, how to get to others.
inb4
>yeah I am here but I'm not from here

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:47:34 UTC No. 16070591

>>16070580
Your inb4 reminded me of flagpole sitta for some reason.

As for your question, which is essentially "Is consciousness a computer?" My answer would be, I'm not sure. It seems like many parts of the experience of sentience and sensory perception are computational.

However, I don't think that the answer to your question means much in terms of the real question you are asking, namely, "is the material universe a computer?"

If you believe the universe is itself sentient/conscious in some fashion, then it would make sense to look at the material universe computationally if you view sentience as computational. I'm not sure I believe that the universe itself requires sentience or something akin to the neural computations your brain performs in order to function.

If you pour water from a glass into your sink, your brain will do computations to turn the signals your eyes observe into something your sentience can process. This doesn't imply that the water itself is dependent on a computational process to fall.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:50:01 UTC No. 16070596

>>16070591
>If you pour water from a glass into your sink
that's exactly computation. if you break the glass that's a computation, and the shards of glass on the floor store the resulting information. weird innit

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:51:47 UTC No. 16070600

>>16070596
> That's exactly computation.

No, it isn't. You are again confusing "the material world contains computers" with "the material world is a computer." There's nothing inherently computational about water falling due to gravity.

A sentient being could use water falling to develop a computer of some form, but the water falling itself isn't a computer.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:57:27 UTC No. 16070612

>>16070600

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 19:58:31 UTC No. 16070617

>>16070600
you just don't get it do you?

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 20:17:04 UTC No. 16070654

>>16070573
>what are those discrete unit made of?
Bits of RAM in the machine that is running our simulation.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 20:26:16 UTC No. 16070667

>>16070515
>I speak English
>that means the universe speaks English!

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 20:35:54 UTC No. 16070683

>>16070612
>>16070617
"Water can be used as a computer" != "Water is a computer."

Water itself is a not a machine which is programmed to carry out sequences of arithmetic. You can make a machine (i.e., an analog computer) which uses water and its weight to perform computation.

The water itself is the medium by which the machine uses to produce computation. The water is not a computer.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 20:40:27 UTC No. 16070689

>>16070683
all the universe is a computer. a computer does shit based on imposed programming (natural laws of universe). it constantly performs math and logic operations. most of its computation is irrelevant for us. and human brains are running on bare metal.

Anonymous at Tue, 12 Mar 2024 22:21:42 UTC No. 16070857

>>16069632
if there is something that can't be said about finitists, is them being discrete
also due to godel and from reality being able to support arithmetic, reality is either incomplete or inconsistent

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 07:56:06 UTC No. 16071614

>>16070683
if it can compute somehow then its a computer

simple as

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:18:33 UTC No. 16071673

>>16069632

What is your answer to Weyl's tyle argument?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 10:16:12 UTC No. 16071748

>>16071614
So, by your thinking, any portable rigid object is a hammer, because it can hit a nail if you try hard enough.

Do you not see this as a bit strange?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 10:58:42 UTC No. 16071793

>>16071673
Just zoom out and the pythagorean theorem holds true for any human size observer. Imagine a space "unit" is 10^-100 cubic metres. At the scale of human engineering measurements, that space will appear perfectly smooth.

Just like how your computer screen appears smooth, or how a body of water appears smooth despite being made up of discrete atoms. Just zoom out.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 14:05:12 UTC No. 16072052

>>16069666
Based
>>16069686
fuck off reddit spacing imbecile

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 14:08:53 UTC No. 16072055

if space is discrete, why is my vision continuous, check mate atheists.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 14:09:19 UTC No. 16072058

>>16070542
An incredible number of people can be fooled with sentences such as: A ball is called a ball because it looks like a ball.

You're arguing with a low-IQ specimen who cannot properly process sentences written in the conjunctive whose premise rests on a hypothetical as opposed to real scenario.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:00:41 UTC No. 16072131

>>16069666
In the case of discrete vs continuous, the discrete alternative is the less complex one and thus more likely to be true. Infinite detail at all points is waaaaaay more absurd.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:18:41 UTC No. 16072159

>>16069632
Wouldn't it take a computing machine an infinite amount of time to find the sine of some angle, since the only way we have to compute it is the infinite series?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:40:45 UTC No. 16072194

>>16072131
discrete space can be disproven with 15 seconds of thought. If space were a rectangular lattice of discrete locations like a chessboard, then 3 steps east and 3 steps northeast would have both the same displacement from the starting point and the same displacement eastwards, despite the 2nd trip ending 3 steps north of the first. Pythagorean fails, circles have circumference 2*D, all geometry goes out the window. Not a lot of regular polyhedra that tesselate 3-space, and they'd obviously all have the same problem

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 15:47:56 UTC No. 16072209

>>16072194
Space doesn't have to be a grid tho. And by the way, all the circles and triangles you do math on are discrete (molecules of graphite and pixels on a screen) and yet you still conclude that the pythagorean theorem is correct because you're zoomed out enough.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:00:16 UTC No. 16072239

>everything in the universe is computation
>okay, here’s a list of things that have been proven to be impossible to compute
>shut up!

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:01:58 UTC No. 16072244

>>16072239
>okay, here’s a list of things that have been proven to be impossible to compute
Such as?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:13:29 UTC No. 16072258

>>16072055
8K resolution at high fps

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:34:55 UTC No. 16072306

>>16072131
>the discrete alternative is the less complex one and thus more likely to be true
And you make this claim based on what?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:37:20 UTC No. 16072313

>>16072306
A bunch of little space atoms is less complex than some sort of recurrent infinity in every single cubic nanometer of space, wouldn't you agree?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:41:43 UTC No. 16072320

>>16072313
>A bunch of little space atoms is less complex than some sort of recurrent infinity in every single cubic nanometer of space
And? A single solid form is less complex than a bunch of little space atoms, that doesn't mean reality is any less complex, your argument makes no sense and is a completely baseless assumption.

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:42:04 UTC No. 16072321

>>16072313
that's a retarded take
the function f(x) = x is "recurrent infinity"
do you think it's more complex than something discrete like the piecewise linear function?

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:43:06 UTC No. 16072323

>>16072321
piecewise step* function

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:47:30 UTC No. 16072334

>>16072321
No. Only the dots you calculate on your computer or by hand is actually part of that function graph, zoom in enough and there will be gaps between the graphite molecules or the screen pixels where the graph isn't defined.

So even f(x) = x is not continuous.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:47:36 UTC No. 16072335

>>16072209
breh

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:50:44 UTC No. 16072339

>>16072334
>even f(x) = x is not continuous
you are confusing human's ablility to implement an function in a device with the function itself.
please stop showing your stupidity.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:51:46 UTC No. 16072342

>>16072334
>zoom in enough and there will be gaps between the graphite molecules
And those gaps are filled with matter, there is no such thing as empty space or absence of matter, we're all full

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:54:58 UTC No. 16072350

>>16072339
Other way around, YOU are the one who can't let go of the human bias to percieve things as continuous.

Is a banana discrete? Yes. Is a body of water discrete? Also yes. But we are animals programmed to assume continuousness.

There are no current proof for anything being continuous, but many things have been proven to be discrete as we've gained more knowledge (matter, light, energy and more).

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:57:19 UTC No. 16072352

>>16072350
you're going in another direction after being btfo by smarter people here.
I don't know whether space is continuous or not. have no preference in them.
but your take that discrete less complex than continuous is simply retarded high schooler tier.
maybe you should read more before mouthing off on the internet?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:04:23 UTC No. 16072364

>>16072352
Whatever continuous function you point to is a pure math abstraction and not representative of anything in reality. It's pure imagination and doesn't have an equivalent in reality. It's like infinity, pure fantasy.

Show me a single thing in nature that is an example of continuousness. Made up things do not count.

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:08:12 UTC No. 16072370

>>16072364
again, you are going in tangent direction here cause you were btfo.
>Whatever continuous function you point to is a pure math abstraction and not representative of anything in reality. It's pure imagination and doesn't have an equivalent in reality
citation needed, we don't even know if space is continuous or discrete.
is time continuous or discrete?
is your mom continuous or discrete if you zoom in infinitely?
see? we don't know shit and I accept that we don't know for shit. that's why I don't jump into conclusion like you. you have already made up your mind that everything is discrete, that's why you are making stupid arguments.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:11:09 UTC No. 16072375

>>16072370
We're talking about the probability of either option being correct. The least complex alternative is likely the best bet.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:11:11 UTC No. 16072376

>>16072352
nta but why should I believe it's continuous instead of discrete? there's no other example in nature for this continuity. is it just because it "seems" to you it's continuous?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:12:22 UTC No. 16072380

>>16072375
Reality does not operate on probabilities

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:13:32 UTC No. 16072381

>>16072380
We don't have perfect information and infinite computing power so we operate on probabilities.

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:13:50 UTC No. 16072382

>>16072375
>least complex alternative is likely the best bet
citation needed for this. why should I bet on this? it's not a betting game. there isn't a proability in the truth nature of reality. there is only one truth.
define least complex.
discrete is not neccessary be less complex than continuous.

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:14:53 UTC No. 16072383

>>16072376
>why should I believe it's continuous instead of discrete?
there isn't any evidence either way, why should strongly believe in either direction?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:16:07 UTC No. 16072386

>>16072382
>there isn't a proability in the truth nature of reality
There is probability involved when humans don't know exactly, do you follow?

>>16072382
>discrete is not neccessary be less complex than continuous.
A finite amount of "space dots" is less complex than infinities everywhere. Just 1 single infinity in nature is pure fantasy.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:16:12 UTC No. 16072387

>>16072381
This has absolutely no bearing on the nature of reality

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:16:44 UTC No. 16072388

give one fucking example of this continuity in nature, of any kind, proven by science.
there's also math which acurately predicts shit, that has been verified, and it also predicts quantized space and time.
so, with no fucking scientific example for any of this imaginary soul-like continuity, you suppose it's continuous? take your fucking meds

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:17:47 UTC No. 16072391

>>16072383
>there isn't any evidence either way,
>evidence
throwing away math anon? really?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:17:50 UTC No. 16072392

>>16072387
Work on your english reading comprehension

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:18:21 UTC No. 16072393

>>16072386
>A finite amount of "space dots" is less complex than infinities everywhere
and nothing is less complex than something, yet something exists and nothing does not, you are jumping to conclusions without any arguments to back it up, what physical mechanism would cause reality choose to be more simple over more complex?

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:18:55 UTC No. 16072395

>>16072386
>There is probability involved when humans don't know exactly
and why should it affect the truth nature of reality? humans not knowing doesn't mean the world should change.
you don't understand probablity here.

>some bullshit
again, you are being purely stupid here. I think you don't have enough brain juice to understand or follow this kind of conversation. read more, dumbass.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:20:50 UTC No. 16072398

>>16072395
>and why should it affect the truth nature of reality?
Do you have trouble reading? When you and I talk and we lack perfect information, the only thing we can do is discuss probabilities.

AIFag !Gy8L8Ggb7w at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:22:31 UTC No. 16072403

>>16072398
ok, I'll stop. simply a waste of time. I need to go biking.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:22:46 UTC No. 16072404

>>16072393
>and nothing is less complex than something
But we observe something, so we can rule out nothing. Simplicity over complexity is not a hard law of nature, it's just trend.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:26:55 UTC No. 16072407

>>16072404
>Simplicity over complexity is not a hard law of nature, it's just trend.
1. reality does not operate on trends
2. every step up in information processing has revealed that everything we observe is composed of more complex things than we could previously observe
Your appeal to simplicity is fallacious and has no backbone, you assume it to be true just because you say so without providing a shred of evidence as to why it should be true

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:27:02 UTC No. 16072408

>>16072403
Maybe you'll stop writing like some terminally antagonistic 4chan brain the next time. To think an adult man gets this agitated over chatting online.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:28:18 UTC No. 16072410

>>16072407
Sure, but the evidence for continuousness is a big fat 0. So I'll take the side that has even the slightest evidence going for it.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:39:01 UTC No. 16072429

>>16072386
>A finite amount of "space dots" is less complex than infinities everywhere
False. An infinite grid is actually more complex (more structure) than a smooth continuum

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:50:17 UTC No. 16072437

>>16072410
>the evidence for continuousness is a big fat 0
lol, it is directly observable that there are no gaps between things, there is no observable or experimental evidence to suggest things operate in discrete increments, try again

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 17:54:15 UTC No. 16072442

>>16070570
>>16070683
>>16070551
you are pretty smart
these retards don't understand that science is our attempt to model the universe (computationally). that is only a descriptive constraint on its observed behavior, not an intrinsic description of its mechanism (which a finite human theory cannot fully explain)

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 18:24:56 UTC No. 16072483

>>16070683
https://youtu.be/P2hn9kQHi_s?t=249
a fucking spoon is a computer. you midwits just don't understand it.

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 18:34:55 UTC No. 16072508

>>16069817
No, but you can represent it as such up to the point described in OP. Map, territory, etc

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 18:35:42 UTC No. 16072510

Have anybody seen Pierre Noyes' discrete physics hypothesis? Apart from going full schizo over the fine structure constant some ideas from his works are pretty nice.

inb4 everyone who makes serious claims about discrete space within current physics framework is clinically retarded

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 21:15:30 UTC No. 16072883

>BTFO thousands of years ago
>still arguing it's true

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 22:31:51 UTC No. 16072983

>>16072388
>soul-like continuity
what do melons have to do with aeronautics?

Anonymous at Wed, 13 Mar 2024 22:35:32 UTC No. 16072991

>>16072510
i whould not call him clinicaly retarded, just garden variety retarded