Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:15:58 UTC No. 16175574

No.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:16:40 UTC No. 16175575

>>16175574
Defend your stance.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:21:00 UTC No. 16175580

>>16175575
There is this thing called the sun, which supplies the earth with a constant flow of negentropy. As long as it shines, there is no contradiction in net entropy on earth decreasing.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:23:11 UTC No. 16175583

>>16175580
How does the sun supply the earth with negentropy? I'm not saying you're wrong. I just want you to elaborate further.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:27:07 UTC No. 16175589

>>16175575
NTA but many people misunderstand how entropy functions both analytical like and physically.

"Entropy" is just the "self-information" of a distribution. It tells you the mutual information between the past samples from a distribution and the future samples of the distribution. If you have high entropy, then knowing the samples of the distribution in the past gives you very little information about the samples in the future. The "maximum entropy" distribution is the one in which knowing the past samples will give you the least information in terms of MSE about the samples you draw next.

The tendency for entropy to increase on the average also doesn't mean that complex patterns cannot emerge. It simply means that on the average, energy will tend to seek a sort of "uniformity" or "equilibrium" state. If life forms make up a fairly small proportion of the energy in the system (which we do) there is no reason to believe that the tendency for materials to seek uniformity/homogeneity precludes some very complex things happening on the tails of the distribution.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:32:32 UTC No. 16175593

>>16175589
Very informational! Thank you for your input.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:34:18 UTC No. 16175597

>>16175583
Entropy only increases within a closed system. The earth is not a closed system. Like the other anon said it is constantly getting energy from the sun and that energy can be used to do work. In our case it used to create complex systems. Complexity is the flip-side to entropy.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:36:45 UTC No. 16175600

>>16175597
But how is it that the sun allows for complexity on earth?

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:38:33 UTC No. 16175603

>>16175583
>How does the sun supply the earth with negentropy?
With sunlight, which is a form of predictable energy, and therefore negentropy.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:41:03 UTC No. 16175608

>>16175600
What do you mean? The sun produces energy which is low entropy. That energy can use used to do stuff.

Our universe started from a low entropy state and yes the 2nd law of thermodynamics says it will always increase after that, but that's averaged across the scale of the entire universe. Locally, order (complexity) can still arise.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:44:08 UTC No. 16175611

>>16175608
I think this helps answer my question for the most part. If I have peanut butter, jelly, and two slices of bread (which in themselves are disorganized), I can organize them through my own energy and combine them into a more organized and complex item.

However, my question still stands as to how sunlight allows higher complexity on earth. What energy is contributing to higher complexity?

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 15:48:56 UTC No. 16175618

>>16175611
That's a very different question. You're asking how can complexity arise at all and frankly we don't have a complete answer to that. But essentially any sufficiently complex system that is defined by rules, the emergence of complexity and self-organisation seems to be a universal property of such systems.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 16:03:08 UTC No. 16175631

>>16175583
My guy you are the most retarded nigger I’ve seen in quite a while.
>How does the sun supply Earth with energy
Holy shit…

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 16:08:09 UTC No. 16175636

>>16175631
Your logic makes no sense.
>There's a bunch of bricks
>Add sunlight
>BOOM! Now you have a castle!

If you genuinely believe this is how it works, you should take you retardry over to /pol/.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 16:10:12 UTC No. 16175641

>>16175593
Glad to be of service.

To respond to the question at the end of >>16175611

Complexity is itself a complicated topic that is far less related to entropy (which again deals with averages) than you might think.

Complexity also doesn't necessarily mean "higher energy" though in general a complex system requires more energy/power (depending on if the dynamics of the system are fundamentally periodic) than a non-complex system. These two might seem at odds with each other but let me give you a very simple (and hopefully intuitive) example.

Depending on where you are in the world, your electricity to your house is either 110 V AC or 220 V DC. These signals are generally fairly simple and smooth (usually pretty close to a clean 60 Hz if it's AC, and pretty close to a clean 0 Hz if it's DC with a bit of perturbation in the mix). When you plug your computer into the wall outlet, it is receiving a much higher energy source than it is able to utilize, but this power source is very simple in its organization (one primary frequency with a small amount of noise and some harmonics of exponentially decreasing contribution).

Yet your computer takes this power and distributes it in a highly complex and organized way. There's no "magic" in the way it distributes this power, it's all just transistors, loads and interconnects for the most part. On top of this the transient effects dissipate very quickly (on the order of nanoseconds in many cases), meaning that the energy in your computer has actually reached a near "equilibrium" state despite the complexity and needing an external energy source.

However what happens when you turn off the power to the computer? The energy again seeks an equilibrium, but this equilibrium is sans the contributing energy from outside the system so it looks far more "uniform" and much less complex.

I know it doesn't directly answer your question (which in truth is a very deep one) but hopefully it can help give you some intuition?

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 16:13:40 UTC No. 16175646

>>16175636
Your question was
>How does the sun provide the Earth with negentropy?
It was not a question about biogenesis, tard.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 16:14:44 UTC No. 16175648

>>16175572
Tell her that it is impossible for you to do the dishes, wash your clothes, make the bed or clean up your shit, because it defies the laws of entropy.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 16:36:03 UTC No. 16175678

>>16175572
The laws of entropy hold for a closed system. Organisms themselves aren't closed systems, the universe is the closed system. Life is basically the only known thing in the universe that reverses entropy, but it exists within a larger system in which the laws of entropy are still correct.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 17:31:15 UTC No. 16175734

>>16175678
The universe is not a closed system since it created energy at some point. If it was closed it’d be hardstuck at exactly no energy.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 17:43:10 UTC No. 16175750

>>16175572
Smack her across the face and go have a drink.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 17:55:03 UTC No. 16175780

>>16175572
>>16175600
Entropy is just a description of a statistical inevitability, one in which a system tends to transition to its most likely macrostates (most abundant microstates). On the flip side of this is another statistical inevitability: evolution, in which the subsystems best at persisting (survival and reproduction) will be the ones that tend to exist (where existing means maintaining a certain macrostate). With a sufficient supply of negentropy these subsystems can do work to maintain their macrostates, as well as experience mutative processes that allow them to randomly traverse a search space of macrostates better at self-persistence and replication.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 17:59:47 UTC No. 16175785

>>16175572
>talking to your wife about physics
>talking to your wife at all about anything other than divorce
Lmao, you got cucked

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 18:01:18 UTC No. 16175788

>>16175572
entropy is just the path of least resistance, things end up homogenous when the amount of random configurations in any given system becomes larger than the amount of ordered configurations, this itself is completely relative to the system you're measuring in, a crystal lattice in a cooling piece of metal can form because the atoms can't go anywhere else, so the ordered configuration takes precedence over random configuration, similarly life could evolve because within the tiny frameworks of operation all the elements had nowhere else to physically go, so they took the path of least resistance, which was to form an ordered structure

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 18:23:37 UTC No. 16175824

>>16175572
She is wrong, entropy can and is getting lower locally. But globaly it is always increasing.

Imagine large aquarium, all water in it is around 20 degree, you can throw an ice cube there no problem and for a while it won't even melt totally, it will just sit there. As it melts, some water will get colder here and there, but eventually it will all get to 20.

Aquarium is the Universe basically. Life is ice cube, it doesn't last very long.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 18:35:35 UTC No. 16175840

>>16175572
So planets never formed from smaller collections of matter? They existed since the beginning of the Universe?

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 18:54:41 UTC No. 16175875

>>16175824
The question is really how did the universe spawn a gigantic low entropy state to begin with?

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 19:13:53 UTC No. 16175903

>>16175875
Well its not like anything can happen when you have entropy at max right. Some random fluctuations maybe but Universe coming out of that sounds bit too convenient.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 19:27:38 UTC No. 16175918

>>16175903
In a closed system you have the poincare recurrence where all states will eventually repeat. A box of gas that loses no energy will eventually repeat every single configuration over and over as time ticks up. Even the extremely unlikely cases will repeat.

However, the universe might not be closed. And the universe also does not have conservation of energy, namely it increases in total energy all the time and it also spat out a ton of energy in the past.

Some believe 0 energy universe hypothesis which posits that the sum of all potential gravitational energy and all mass/energy is 0 and that there could be some sort of decoupling mechanism that is responsible for creating all the matter and energy we see from nothing.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 19:29:55 UTC No. 16175923

Adding random limbs etc. and just darwing killing those creatures who don't work is raising entropy, not lowering it.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 20:20:40 UTC No. 16176005

>>16175734
>A box of gas that loses no energy will eventually repeat every single configuration over and over as time ticks up. Even the extremely unlikely cases will repeat.
This assumes a static box of glass with a constant volume. If the box is increasing in volume over time, the pressure and temperature will decrease infinitely towards 0.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 20:21:11 UTC No. 16176007

>>16176005
Meant for >>16175918

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 20:22:09 UTC No. 16176009

Also *gas

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 20:40:07 UTC No. 16176047

>>16175572
Entropy only increases predictably in a closed system. A net inflow of energy can increase net entropy while decreasing local entropy because that local inflow of energy gets used to create those complex systems, which make use of the energy cascade that would otherwise go unused. Take out the flow and boom net entropy has increased and life stops

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 21:22:51 UTC No. 16176124

>>16176005
Yes. However the universe also increases in energy as time goes on. Eternal inflation is the current best theory and posits that inflaton energy is constantly ticking up and collapses locally where it dumps its energy in the form of matter and radiation, forming a big bang event.

1. The total energy in the universe increases with time.
2. There is a matter/energy creating mechanism or we would not observe matter or energy.
The above statements are verifiably true and ”theories of everything” or models on extreme scales need to take both into account.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 21:41:18 UTC No. 16176168

>>16176124
>However the universe also increases in energy as time goes on.
Source?

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 21:47:26 UTC No. 16176193

>>16176168
things roll down hill and things fall apart

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 21:48:19 UTC No. 16176195

>>16176193
???

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 21:50:29 UTC No. 16176201

>>16176124
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/02/22/energy-is-not-conserved/

Energy density in vacuum is constant and non-zero while volume increases = higher total. And also the fact that the total energy at one point went from 0 to the all the energy in the universe.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 21:51:29 UTC No. 16176203

>>16176201
Meant for>>16176168

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 22:24:29 UTC No. 16176263

>>16176201
>>16176203
>Energy density in vacuum is constant and non-zero while volume increases
That's just not true by the definition of density.
>And also the fact that the total energy at one point went from 0 to the all the energy in the universe.
Even if I grant you this point, (Which I won't. It's incoherent nonsense.) that only proves that it is possible for the total energy of the universe to increase. It doesn't imply that it is increasing or will increase at some point in the future.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 22:41:18 UTC No. 16176290

>>16175572
Can a painter paint a picture?
I mean, it's an empty canvas, but he fill it with non-entropic information.
How is that even possible??? I thought entropy always increases?? Send your wife this SnapChat with dog ears.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 22:46:11 UTC No. 16176299

>>16175611
>What energy is contributing to higher complexity?
With more energy you can just do more stuff. Full stop. There is no more to this answer than this. This is even related to the definition of entropy in information science (entropy is actually ONE unified philosophical concept, it's not a "different" usage). The opposite (inverse) of entropy is there "being more meaningful stuff". You can get more meaningful stuff if there is more usable energy. It is a requirement for meaningful stuff.
As it happens, for the otherwise dead universe "meaningful stuff" is life.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 23:02:47 UTC No. 16176314

>>16176263
No the vacuum energy is constant per volume unit of space, it is what drives the expansion of the universe (it takes energy to do so). But the volume is increasing. Density of vacuum energy * volume = absolute amount energy and the volume factor is increasing. This is the common understanding of physicists today.

And if you don’t believe the point of the initial energy creation mechanism in the universe, then you must believe matter/energy is eternal into the past which is an absurd notion. The leading theory today (eternal inflation) also has increasing total energy and matter/energy creation explained. You simply can’t have a solid theory without total energy being able to go up because such a universe would be forever stuck at a fat fucking 0 for all time.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 23:21:51 UTC No. 16176329

>>16176314
It may be that all of the energy in the universe spontaneously came into existence in the form of a singularity due to some yet unknown law of nature, but we have no particular reason to believe this. That's just your hunch.
Without a coherent theory to describe the state of the universe at the point of the singularity, (as well as prior to it, assuming it even makes sense to speak of such a thing) it is impossible and illogical to speculate on the origin of the universe's energy.

Anonymous at Tue, 14 May 2024 23:24:55 UTC No. 16176335

>>16175572
General direction is something else than temporary and isolated movement.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 12:37:16 UTC No. 16176976

>>16176290
>Can a painter paint a picture?
>I mean, it's an empty canvas, but he fill it with non-entropic information.
>How is that even possible??? I thought entropy always increases??
OP is dumb but your example brings up an interesting question in light of generative AI making somewhat decent pictures.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 12:45:32 UTC No. 16176982

>>16175572
>Impossible
You can just get lucky. Even at heat death you can have lucky fluctuations and achieve life out of sheer luck.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 14:11:09 UTC No. 16177045

Entropy is proof God exists. Only via God can man be drawn up from nothingness and be forced to stay at a peak of energy we call life. Life is God defeating entropy.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 14:44:48 UTC No. 16177083

>>16177045
Lol. Pathetic mewing creatures.
>God defeating
God doesn't have to fight.
Life is God making entropy believe it means something.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 15:10:55 UTC No. 16177094

>>16175593
>>16175589
entropy is the number of microstates of a given energetic macrostate

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 15:31:34 UTC No. 16177110

>>16175608
Why should I believe any of their laws when up to 95% of everything is unobservable in every way and the remaining 5% are literally virtual particles and a pinch of entanglement?
Seems unscientific and completely fabricated.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 15:43:04 UTC No. 16177114

Entropy means systems are more likely to assume the more likely configurations rather than the less likely. That's it. Nothing about it prohibits complexity. It's just unlikely.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 15:47:50 UTC No. 16177118

>>16175572
By that logic the same would go for single cell organisms btw.
A single cell organism offers far more complexity per volume than most things, perhaps anything else in the universe.
Worse, life is partially defined by its ability to be self replicating. Thus single cell organisms are not only an increase in entropy compared to the previous situation, where only elementary matter and simple compounds were present.
Again: This argument is evidence of failure to understand the difference between a general trend in a certain direction and synchronous movement in that direction.
A suitable analog would be the fact that a rifle shot can be found to exit the muzzle alot faster than the speed of sound in the driving medium would allow for. This is because while on average the particles travel at the speed of sound, their motion is compounded by their individual motion within that frame of reference, meaning some are temporarily faster, some temporarily slower than that, allowing for some of the pressure being exerted on the projectiles base even after it acellerated past the speed of sound.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 17:33:32 UTC No. 16177203

>>16175583
heat, learn thermodynamics and stop making these stupid threads

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 18:32:42 UTC No. 16177250

>>16175572
Complex systems naturally arrange themselves in ways that increase entropy faster. Your hot cup of coffee gives off steam which more quickly destroys the thermal gradient between it and the outside. Complex life is a more complex embodiment of the same thing. We waste a lot more useful energy than a bunch of bacteria would.

Anonymous at Wed, 15 May 2024 20:14:56 UTC No. 16177396

>>16175575
It happened

Anonymous at Thu, 16 May 2024 03:04:32 UTC No. 16177851

>>16177094
That is Boltzmann entropy, which is just a special case of the more general notion of entropy as defined by Shannon.

Boltzmann entropy also doesn't particularly generalize well to differential entropy (i.e., entropy of a continuous distributed random variable/system), hence why most everyone who does information theoretic research uses Shannon entropy instead.

Anonymous at Thu, 16 May 2024 03:11:59 UTC No. 16177857

wtf I thought gravity pulled things down not up???? How is this possible?????

Anonymous at Thu, 16 May 2024 13:01:56 UTC No. 16178338

>>16175572
If its impossible for simple life to become more complex over time its impossible for anything to be put into an ordered state at all.

Anonymous at Thu, 16 May 2024 13:33:14 UTC No. 16178373

>>16175583
the energy coming from the Sun counters the natural increase in entropy
the energy from the Sun allows the evolutionary iteration to work.