🧵 First civilization wins this game, right?
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 22:29:56 UTC No. 16196661
You can argue that its the smartest that wins or the one that had best conditions at the beginning, that could be if the difference was small. But if the second civilization comes milions of years after the first one, its over. First one already has AI, Dyson Sphere and robowaifus.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 22:31:26 UTC No. 16196664
great, more grandiose delusions
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 22:40:57 UTC No. 16196678
>>16196664
I suppose, but its fun to think about. Like our place in the Galaxy, does it gives us advantage in any way? Wouldn't it be better to be closer to the center? We could make a lot of observations easier.
But our star is not first generation. It's naive to think we are first. The strangest thing about it is that Galaxy doesn't seem to be fully colonized yet.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 22:43:04 UTC No. 16196683
>>16196678
There could be a relativistic mass driver aimed at our planet right now.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 22:47:09 UTC No. 16196700
>>16196678
>Like our place in the Galaxy, does it gives us advantage in any way? Wouldn't it be better to be closer to the center? We could make a lot of observations easier
It wouldn't matter because if you really start considering the physics behind any fantastical inventions you'll find that you are very limited in what you can do, we're at the endgame
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 22:49:07 UTC No. 16196703
suppose FTL travel never becomes a thing, then having one giant single galaxy spanning civilizations would be basically impossible.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:12:00 UTC No. 16196743
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:40:54 UTC No. 16196767
>>16196703
Why? All they need is time and Universe is pretty old. Twice as old as we previously thought, probably even older.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:49:27 UTC No. 16196778
>>16196767
even so the amount of matter in the galaxy is finite, it will not be able to support constant growth forever.
war will be unavoidable. there will never be one giant solitary civilization.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:51:27 UTC No. 16196781
>>16196767
the point also is the civilisation wouldn't be a cohesive whole. it would fragment into hundreds of thousands of states. a planet on one side of the galaxy would have nothing to do with a planet on the other side due to the time it takes to communicate
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:56:39 UTC No. 16196794
>>16196661
In economics we call it the "First Mover Advantage" and as you posit it is a powerful advantage that sometimes is all that matters.
Look at Facebook or Tesla. Both had FMA and profited wildly from it. Tesla squandered it and is now behind other auto makers who spent the last decade racing to catch up while Musk stayed stagnant. Facebook instead was aggressive in growth and expansion of their core product lines. Amazon same thing, first for eCommerce then moved into cloud servers and space.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/
As you also posit this FMA gives us prime spot to enact the Dark Forest Hypothesis of the Fermi Paradox. It's now in our overwhelming best interest to find and eliminate all sentient life and all life with the potential to become sentient. We would be best to strike as soon as we are able and show no mercy even when wiping out whole planets of stone age level beings. It's the only logical step to take for self preservation. Otherwise you risk being like Elon, overtaken eventually and eaten alive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_
This opens a can of worms as we've been broadcasting a beacon into space for decades that is nothing more than a giant "DINNER" sign for hungry killer aliens. It's likely already too late to save ourselves if the true "first to market aliens" are out there listening for prey. Alternatively if we are the First Movers SETI now becomes the most important global security program in existence.
>>16196683
The shot that is going to kill us could have already been fired, taking several hundred years to reach us we ITT might live and die before it happens. That's the scale of time we are dealing with.
>>16196703
Incorrect, it would take about 20,000 years to colonize our way to the center of the galaxy in generation ships that travel less than the speed of light. Not even counting robotic exploration.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:58:38 UTC No. 16196799
>>16196700
You really think so? Looks more like a beginning to me. So many hints that there is more to the Universe than we think, dark matter/energy, all the quantum stuff, extra dimensions.
Anonymous at Mon, 27 May 2024 23:59:16 UTC No. 16196801
>>16196794
>Incorrect, it would take about 20,000 years to colonize our way to the center of the galaxy in generation ships that travel less than the speed of light. Not even counting robotic exploration.
the civilization that reaches the center of the galaxy will not be the same civilization back on Earth
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:01:51 UTC No. 16196803
>>16196778
Incorrect. Black holes and Dyson spheres in our galaxy alone hold limitless energy for all intents and purpose. To state the Milky Way's total mass and/or energy could be impacted in any meaningful way by ever trillions of humans if laughable. 100 trillion humans might make the smallest barely able to measure dent in the total mass of the Milky Way, except mass is energy and energy can't be destroyed so we never actually lose that mass/energy from the Milky Way system.
>>16196781
This whole thread is basically an few Issac Arthur episodes in one. Issac talks about this and the lag of communications between colonies guarantees they eventually break away and declare independence. Earth has no ability to control a colony in our Solar System let alone one light years away. Even if they sent space cops to your colony you'd have how many years to prepare to fight them. Then the space cops have no back up, at least none that aren't 10 years tri
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:02:21 UTC No. 16196804
>>16196778
You can always grab another one. Or not... I just tried to imagine how could a war between two galaxies look and I think the sheer distance alone makes it kinda impossible.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:05:41 UTC No. 16196807
>>16196801
CORRECT, I said that here actually. >>16196803
Like I said Issac Arthur talks about all this in extreme detail, better than I can. The second the colony ship leaves Earth or wherever consider them a rouge nation. They will form unique culture, laws, and values. It's 110% a sure thing. Like I said it's also impossible to send troops light years into space and enforce an empire. Maybe, and that's a HUGE maybe, Terra could field a fleet of space ships to control the Sol System but even so we would need A LOT of very fast ships to make it out and back in good time. Not to mention the space cops aren't going to spend 10-20 years in space for a single mission to police a rogue colony. It's basically a suicide one way mission. Best case most of the people you knew are dead by the time you make it back to Earth. The light lag for interstellar communication would make sharing culture very difficult even.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:08:54 UTC No. 16196814
>>16196803
But you can have a collective like BORG, working in the same way everywhere, in the Star Trek I think they were all connected but you don't really need that, you just need to reject individuality and make sure, via genes or some technology that there is no way anyone will go sideways.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:09:16 UTC No. 16196816
I would rather ayys wipe us our rather than some random AI we create desu
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:11:11 UTC No. 16196819
>>16196804
>a war between two galaxies look
It's impossible to escape the Milky Wat let alone wage war outside it. Even in Star Trek with warp 9.8 they were still confined to the Alpha Quadrant and the vast majority of the Milky Way was unexplored.
>At present, the closet known galaxy to the Milky Way is the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy – aka. the Canis Major Overdensity. This stellar formation is about 42,000 light years from the galactic center, and a mere 25,000 light years from our Solar System. This puts it closer to us than the center of our own galaxy, which is 30,000 light years away from the Solar System.
So at the speed of light it will take 30,000 years for our first shot to reach it's target and another 30,000 years for the light afterwards to reach us and confirm we hit our target. Sure we could just spam rounds down range and hope they hit but still.....30,000 years. If we are the First Mover Aliens and we intend to kill everyone else then it's better to shot now than later, but even if we shoot first, the enemy can still detect it with thousands of years to spare, build a weapon, shot it at us, and they will die before it lands but we will also die. Like two boxers both landing a KO blow at the same time.
I wouldn't recommend it.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:14:25 UTC No. 16196822
>>16196819
So its basically like chess, but you can throw the hands of your opponent away before he makes any move.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:17:40 UTC No. 16196827
in this regard I don't think first mover advantage would be a benefit over a multi million year time scale
maybe for the first 100,000 years or so Earth will dominate but after that it will become a total free for all
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:22:29 UTC No. 16196834
>>16196814
DISCLAIMER: Star Trek is fiction I know that!
The Borg used quantum entanglement to construct an ansible modem and that's how all Borg are connected in real time despite the vast interstellar distances. This of course is a novel solution but fiction. As for your gene or tech solution it won't work. Eventually they are too far, the light lag for updates is too long, and humans are not Borg, they will resist and they will find a way to be free. I would argue it's impossible, like a 40K style intergalactic empire will never happen. A better example is The Expanse. In the Sol System the three factions are unable to defeat each other out right thanks to a combination of resources, distance(geography), and other space based factors.
>>16196822
No it's like if you two were playing chess but it's over Zoom, he's in Tokyo and you are in Minsk. But now you still have to find someway to physically throw your opponents board into the sea to win while he is trying to do the same thing. It's better to think in terms of time instead of distance. I'm probably not making good metaphors, it's also like a game of dominoes where we have to do a lot of the work up front for one big long train of shit we hope hits perfectly in the end. Like maybe two guys, one in Tokyo, one in Minsk. They both need to set up 1 trillion dominoes so that the last one falls on to a detonator switch hooked to 1000 pounds of TNT sitting next to the other guy. You both race to set up all one trillion dominoes and to make ZERO mistakes, one mistake and you want blow up the guy. It comes down to two factors, who sets up the dominoes with zero errors and then who finishes first pushing over the start block first. Once you're complete and flip the block first, assuming no mistakes, the other guy is as good as dead. But Like I said the bad part is he still has time to finish his dominoes and still can launch second and take you out long after he dies.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:28:40 UTC No. 16196841
OP here, just wanted to say
>>16196794
>>16196803
>>16196807
>>16196819
>>16196834
It is pleasure to read you guys, thanks for writing all that stuff.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:32:30 UTC No. 16196849
science fiction escapist fantasies like this thread are commonly popular with people who have screwed up their real lives here on earth so badly that they're desperate to do anything to avoid thinking about reality of their own sorry situation and instead they fill their heads with ridiculous comic bookish fantasies based on stupid stories they've seen in Hollywood sci-fi movies.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 00:40:24 UTC No. 16196857
>>16196841
No problem but like I said I've just watched every Issac Arthur episode there is and he's big into the intergalactic sized thought experiments. He's wicked smart and always thinks of some angle I wasn't even close to thinking about.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ
Rebel Space Colonies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zio
Dark Forest - Fermi Paradox:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llh
What if Humans are FIRST to explore space:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jo
Crawlinizing the Galaxy, 1% the speed of light:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpX
Pretty sure those are most of the episodes I've referenced ITT. Should help explain it better.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:04:16 UTC No. 16196880
>>16196661
>First civilization wins this game, right?
yes, BUT, only as long as they are able to leave their solar system, if not it doesn't matter how advanced they are they are not going to win shit over anybody else, and interstellar travel is still a big MAYBE I don't give a shit what pop-sci and movies tell you
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:12:09 UTC No. 16196885
>>16196880
I wouldn't say its maybe, I mean, FAST Interstellar travel - definitely a big maybe, but I can't imagine civilization sitting like virgins in their star system forever.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:14:46 UTC No. 16196889
>>16196799
I'm sorry to disappoint you but if you do a little more research you'll come to find that it is logistically not feasible
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:20:43 UTC No. 16196898
>>16196889
Yeah and not so long ago people were absolutely convinced we will never be able to fly. I always take these kind of informations with a grain of salt.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:39:40 UTC No. 16196922
>>16196911
Better us than some ayys lmao
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:41:58 UTC No. 16196927
>>16196898
Yeah good luck supplying your future spaceship with more energy than is available on earth
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:48:25 UTC No. 16196936
>>16196927
I'm not sure you would need that much (I'm not talking FTL here), after the initial launch and speeding up your energy cost would vastly go down.
Still, you can have all the energy you need from Dyson Sphere. There is nothing in principle or in the laws of physics that prevents that, its just a massive engineering problem.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:50:29 UTC No. 16196941
>>16196922
I want to live in a galaxy where we have like thousands of different separated human civilizations all evolving separately.
it would be peak kino and some good science fiction for once.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 01:59:49 UTC No. 16196949
>>16196941
Who knows, maybe it already happened. Maybe we are all descendands of some chad race that dominated it all. And everyone around are kinda like us, but not really.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 02:24:04 UTC No. 16196972
>>16196880
Why would I travel to this far flung star system? I wouldn't. I'd just capture an asteroid, aim it at said civilization, and fire then forget. I'll go about my life in my home system, live, have a family, then die. Then when my great great great grandchild is born the astroid will smash into that distant system wiping out the aliens before they can do the same to me. I will empty the galaxy of all life but my species then we have billions of years to colonize the Milky Way at our leisure with no competition. It's really that simple Hoss.
>>16196911
Nope, you didn't read the thread. Traveling at 4 times the speed of light it will still take 10,000 years to reach the center of the Milky Way from Earth. The distances are too vast even with Clark Tech FTL.
>>16196936
anon....you know you need the same amount of fuel and time to DECELERATE as you do to ACCELERATE right? RIGHT??? So you spend X amount of fuel and Z amount of time to accelerate up to 0.5c. Please note acceleration makes gravity so your max acceleration speed is limited by how much gravity the meat bags inside your ship can take, likely 1g. Now long before you get to your destination you must decelerate for Z amount of time and use the same X of fuel.
>>16196941
I'm writing something like this, a grand galactic epic spanning the Milky Way and several thousand years. Lots of time jumps and space jumps in the story. Loads of AI too.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 05:07:58 UTC No. 16197114
>>16196972
>So you spend X amount of fuel and Z amount of time to accelerate up to 0.5c. Please note acceleration makes gravity so your max acceleration speed is limited by how much gravity the meat bags inside your ship can take, likely 1g. Now long before you get to your destination you must decelerate for Z amount of time and use the same X of fuel.
Ok but you can accelerate very slowly at a steady rate right, same with decelerate, not only it solves the meat bags issues but also should be way more energy effective.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 08:23:50 UTC No. 16197373
>>16196661
Civilizations stop advancing once they develop full dive virtual reality because everyone spends all their time in their own private fantasy worlds where they can be god-emperor or whatever
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 08:33:24 UTC No. 16197386
>>16197373
Thats actually just you narcissistically projecting your god-complex fantasy life onto everyone else. Believe it or not, theres people out there who think differently from the way you do, they have different motivations and preferences from your own
>Ernest Jones, in 1913, was the first to construe extreme narcissism, which he called the "God-complex", as a character flaw. He described people with God-complex as being aloof, self-important, overconfident, auto-erotic, inaccessible, self-admiring, and exhibitionistic, with fantasies of omnipotence and omniscience. He observed that these people had a high need for uniqueness.
Roteman at Tue, 28 May 2024 08:36:11 UTC No. 16197391
>>16197114
another solution is to remove the brains (spinal cord and all) and put them into long tubes horizontaly and fill these tubes with some sort of gelatin or something so when in accelarates the shit moves back through the tube and when it decellerates it moves forward through the tube, should get higher g tolerances with that
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 09:06:38 UTC No. 16197423
>>16196661
Eve and Maciej Nowicki
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 09:58:27 UTC No. 16197453
>>16196661
or they move unto other dimensions leaving this one empty
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 15:32:13 UTC No. 16197788
>>16197386
Relax anon, hes just throwing an idea. But yeah, its just one of many possibilities and I think unlikely because any civilization trying to do such thing would know that they cannot just hide like that forever, eventually someone would come and destroy them while they jerk off in their solar system basement.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 16:14:40 UTC No. 16197830
>>16196936
Bro, large rockets use thousands of gallons of fuel every second just to accelerate at less than 0.01% speed of light, assuming you're not sending a single atom into space and think of a proper vessel with a large crew along with scientific instruments and sub-vehicles which could be used to land on extraterrestrial worlds, yadda yadda yadda, extremely heavy and technologically advanced vessel, already requires tons of money/resources, now add to it a fuel source which could accelerate a million ton object at anywhere near even 2% the speed of light, not going to happen, it's simply not logicistically feasible unless you already control a large portion of a galaxy and have access to magical exotic materials which are indestructible
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 18:51:40 UTC No. 16198039
>>16196661
Yeah, but the real question is why can we see anything if that's the case? Why isn't everything englobed or converted right now? Replicator probes could do it easily in a million years. Why don't we see any galaxies imploding into their centers as a result of some civilization putting shkadov thrusters on every star and moving 90% of the mass into one place so they can make a giga supercomputer and live in hyperrealistic simulations orders of magnitude larger than the entire universe?
My guess is, they develop normally, then someone discovers how to stimulate the reward centers of their brains directly, and the whole society descends into silence and decay as everyone lives in constant bliss until their lifepods or whatever stop working. Or they become so logical that they stop trying to do anything because nothing can be said to be objectively better than another thing, in a global sense, so they simply choose no option and go into sleep mode. I guess these are philisophical questions though, but yeah, if you show up first, all you have to do is stay motivated, but it's hard to say how easy that would be.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 20:42:44 UTC No. 16198183
>>16198039
Yeah, like you say, its hard to tell. While scenarios you mention might be true, I don't think all civilizations would go the same direction and honestly, its hard to believe that we would have like just a few in a Galaxy. But space sure looks like that. We might not know what to look for but its hard to imagine some greater power at work without making itself visible.
Goddamn space, its all just so fucking mysterious.
Anonymous at Tue, 28 May 2024 20:46:12 UTC No. 16198186
>>16196661
That'll be us anon. How are you contributing? How are you helping us?
Anonymous at Wed, 29 May 2024 00:42:37 UTC No. 16198451
>>16197386
People who throw around quackusations like God complex or call out terminology from their high school debate team in internet arguments, are literal roadblocks to progress.
It's so socially off putting, it's one notch away from just pulling your dick out for no reason in a group setting IRL.
Maybe you have the Ernest Jones God complex, since you're using this guy as some sort of authority figure I need to recognize? Do you feel special yet, buddy? Because you're definitely the kind of special that gets to ride a gnarly bus to school in my opinion. :)
Anonymous at Wed, 29 May 2024 01:00:07 UTC No. 16198467
>>16197830
Sling shot around black holes, make sure to keep the doors locked.
Anonymous at Wed, 29 May 2024 20:37:15 UTC No. 16199601
>>16196661
No, the smartest and most ones.
Cockroaches have been around longer than humans, that doesn't mean they are winning.
Anonymous at Wed, 29 May 2024 20:38:16 UTC No. 16199605
>>16199601
most developed*