🧵 Solutrean migration
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 20:19:31 UTC No. 16239924
What the hell did they eat?
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 20:21:30 UTC No. 16239927
>>16239924
animals
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 20:21:51 UTC No. 16239928
>>16239924
Nothing. The Solutrean hypothesis is not really taken seriously anymore. The fact that they would have starved to death is one reason, but the real reason is genetic evidence showing that Native Americans are most closely related to Siberians and not Europeans.
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 21:34:24 UTC No. 16239990
>>16239924
Oceans are filled with tasty treats known as "fish". Perhaps they ate those?
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 21:53:09 UTC No. 16240021
Unicorn beef
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:20:33 UTC No. 16240054
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:37:07 UTC No. 16240077
>>16239928
>Native Americans are most closely related to Siberians and not Europeans.
That is true, but these fellas were meant to have gone extinct, not become a component of the immediate pre-columbian population.
In any case, most of these migratory processions were meant to happen in pursuit of large herds of animals, so food wasn't necessarily an issue as long as they got these animals.
If they in fact arrived in America, food might become an issue. While Amazonian natives can feed themselves in the forest with no problem, Carvajal and other explorers who travelled through the rivers until up to the early 20th century reported almost dying of hunger. Adaptation can be hard.
Didn't the Vinland guys go extinct too?
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:59:46 UTC No. 16240118
>>16240077
>In any case, most of these migratory processions were meant to happen in pursuit of large herds of animals, so food wasn't necessarily an issue as long as they got these animals.
What large herd of animals is going to be walking across thousands of kilometers of pack ice? Those animals need food, too.
>While Amazonian natives can feed themselves in the forest with no problem, Carvajal and other explorers who travelled through the rivers until up to the early 20th century reported almost dying of hunger
Well, the key difference here is that those explorers didn't come from hunter-gatherer societies. If they had, they would have been much more equipped to survive in the wilds, even if they had never been to the Amazon before.
>Didn't the Vinland guys go extinct too?
That was mostly just the colony being abandoned over time. Evidence points to Vinland essentially being a lumber colony. As Greenland was slowly abandoned over the years, Vinland became less useful, and so it was abandoned too. And eventually the Norse Greenlanders all died out after the end of the medieval warm period.
Anonymous at Mon, 17 Jun 2024 23:48:16 UTC No. 16240191
>>16239924
Seals, just like everyone in the North Atlantic. The Solutreans are an early part of a continuous circulation of peoples in smallcraft around the North Atlantic. This was as much for hunting sea mammals as fish, if not more. Seals for everyday food and materials, whales in season with other canoe. This went on from sometime during the Ice Age until the 18th Century when the Beothuk were effectively wiped out, from all around the basin. Sea mammals were important dietary components to anyone living near cold ocean, and still should be but that's a different thread.
There is genetic evidence of some of this exchange, but it's newer than the Solutrean artifacts. Cherokee, Chickasaw and people in Lebanon and the Near East share the X haplogroup but long divergent variants.
>>16239928
>Native Americans are most closely related to Siberians
Implying there was only one event or route between the Old and New Worlds. There's even preliminary evidence of the Nivkeh (sp?) living in coastal Siberia speaking a dialect of Western Algonquian.
Anonymous at Tue, 18 Jun 2024 02:03:39 UTC No. 16240380
It was always extremely obvious to anyone living in coastal Western Europe that there was more land out in the Atlantic somewhere because the gulf stream deposits coconuts and other debris from the tropical and subtropical areas around Florida and Cuba on European shores all the time.
Anonymous at Tue, 18 Jun 2024 03:25:29 UTC No. 16240485
>>16240077
>Vinland
They settled Iceland, Greenland and Vinland during the medieval warm period. When it got colder, the north atlantic became a lot more inhospitable for navigation with longer and colder winters, more sea ice and stronger storms. Greenland colonies could be caught in ice for years at a time and if you can't get to Greenland, you can't go to Vinland. So contact to both was abandoned and the ones that stayed, died.
Anonymous at Wed, 19 Jun 2024 03:03:00 UTC No. 16242066
>>16239924
Imagine failing to triforce that bad
Anonymous at Wed, 19 Jun 2024 03:04:12 UTC No. 16242069
>>16242066
hehe
Anonymous at Wed, 19 Jun 2024 21:31:49 UTC No. 16243177
>>16240485
>They settled Iceland, Greenland and Vinland during the medieval warm period.
Global warming shills on this board claim that the medieval warm period only occurred in Europe. If that was the case, how were they able to survive in Greenland and Vinland?
Anonymous at Thu, 20 Jun 2024 19:46:29 UTC No. 16244477
Anonymous at Fri, 21 Jun 2024 16:47:14 UTC No. 16245870
>>16244477
those are a big job to take down, but it wouldn't surprise me if the people who hunted the mammoths to extinction figured out how. the indians used to only be able to eat them when a dead one washed up on the beach, they only started hunting them after the white man came and showed them how to do it.
Anonymous at Sat, 22 Jun 2024 06:02:21 UTC No. 16246959
>>16239924
whatever they found along the way and whatever they brought with them
Anonymous at Sat, 22 Jun 2024 21:32:55 UTC No. 16248203
Anonymous at Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:12:36 UTC No. 16248271
>>16239924
As the World's first Canadians, they did what needed to be done.
Anonymous at Sun, 23 Jun 2024 18:55:30 UTC No. 16249663
>>16248271
you should try seal meat sometime, its delicious
Kai Winn at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 13:23:44 UTC No. 16250806
>>16239928
Why are the Iroquois R1a then?
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 15:59:43 UTC No. 16250961
>>16239924
Seafood.
Economic efficiency determines population density, and population density determines to some degree your capacity for war, which determines how well you will succeed in the long-term against other nations willing to go to war. And moreover, it determines your ability to spread and govern a larger area with your economic system.
So:
- horses were more efficient in the steppes than non-horses
- farming was more efficient than even the best pastoralism
- seafood harvesting seems to have been the cause for the early high culture that preceded an ancient collapse; it would have been more efficient than hunting without a horse, and it would have led to technologies like shipbuilding that would make them very economically prosperous
One thing I want to know: how did they build ships without iron? Did they use wood screws? Copper is too soft, right?
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 16:03:12 UTC No. 16250964
>>16239990
You mean the stupid meatbags that float and lack any arms or legs to fight back with? The ones whose entire body is edible and provides the ideal ratio of fats and proteins for the human body? The most unevolved animals that are the easiest to catch in their natural environment of all "huntable" animals? The ones that live in a nearly unlimited reservoir of more of them?
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 16:04:59 UTC No. 16250967
>>16240380
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHF
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 16:09:28 UTC No. 16250975
>>16250961
theres sewn ships, that use ropes going through holes in the planks to hold them together. iirc, the egyptian sunship they found in giza is made thay way. you can use wooden pegs. bronze is actuallt better than iron. its less reactive to seawater. but you need a ton of bronze that would have been very valuable back then.
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 16:10:29 UTC No. 16250976
>>16245870
Mammoths weren't hunted to extinction. It was a comet impact with global fires, acid rain, and a lack of sun for years.
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 16:13:28 UTC No. 16250980
>>16250975
Interesting, okay.
Also, I wonder what the relation between the Mediterranean complex and the Mesopotamian-Indian complex is. The former is coastal, the latter is riparian. Granted, Egypt was both and it was considered the location of the king/god of the earth, even for non-Egyptians in some senses.
There's just a whole lot of unaccounted for time there. What happened? Who really built the first pyramid, where did they go, and did they have a role in Sumer and India?
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 17:37:26 UTC No. 16251118
>>16251094
I wonder what is the Y haplogroup that would have coexisted with this female X.
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 18:53:24 UTC No. 16251259
>>16239924
women: cock
men: tiddy milk
Anonymous at Mon, 24 Jun 2024 20:15:43 UTC No. 16251466
>>16250964
are they even animals? I just think of them as snacks.
Anonymous at Tue, 25 Jun 2024 08:00:02 UTC No. 16252347
>>16251094
70,000 years ago neanderthals migrated out of Europe into the near east and kicked the crap out of the humans that were living there, ate a lot of them. Some of the humans must've fled in boats and made it all the way to Eastern Canada, looks like their initial landing point was very near L'Anse aux Meadows, so they probably migrated along the same route Lief Erikson did.
Anonymous at Tue, 25 Jun 2024 10:34:37 UTC No. 16252485
>>16252347
You think they arrived before the Solutreans?
Anonymous at Tue, 25 Jun 2024 13:24:21 UTC No. 16252684
>>16252347
>>16252485
there's that mastodon they found in california that shows signs of breaking the bones to get to the marrow and is 130000 years old
Anonymous at Tue, 25 Jun 2024 19:49:39 UTC No. 16253329
>>16252485
Once the first migration happened there was inevitably regular travel back and forth.
Anonymous at Wed, 26 Jun 2024 07:30:29 UTC No. 16254379
Crossing the Atlantic in a small boat isn't all that challenging, 70 year olds have done it in a kayak. Took him 11 weeks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleks
Anonymous at Thu, 27 Jun 2024 05:48:25 UTC No. 16256114
There was oceanic trade between Egypt and the Indus River valley 6000 years ago, so its not far fetched at all to think that people were crossing the Atlantic in prehistoric times.
Anonymous at Thu, 27 Jun 2024 07:13:01 UTC No. 16256252
>>16254379
It's one thing to cross with a small number of people, but could they build boats reliable enough to carry cargo and sustain trade routes?
Anonymous at Thu, 27 Jun 2024 07:35:35 UTC No. 16256276
>>16239924
>Solutrean migration
What is the basic tldr; "body of possible proof" for the Solutrean Migration? I'm super curious, but haven't actually seen anything for or against that wasn't a political talking point. I need more of this: >>16251094 For what it's worth I know offhand that the Basque people unironically made it to Canada, after the Vikings, but before John Cabot in 1497 since he literally reported that the Basque were already there: drying cod and manning seasonal fishing huts on Canada's east coast.
Also, to answer your question: Seals, *lots* of seals, as well as whale, fish, seaweed, and sporadic artic forage. The north pole is frequently treated as a desolate cold hellhole, but if you've a taste for seal the contrast with how much meat can be seasonally acquired is tremendous.
>>16250961
>One thing I want to know: how did they build ships without iron? Did they use wood screws? Copper is too soft, right?
Both Austronesian and Polynesian peoples built perfectly sea-worthy ships capable of voyaging all the way from North East Africa to Australia with only stone tools (granted they followed the coasts). I don't see why you'd think metal would be necessary or am I missing something?
Anonymous at Thu, 27 Jun 2024 07:53:14 UTC No. 16256283
>>16256276
>Both Austronesian and Polynesian peoples built perfectly sea-worthy ships capable of voyaging all the way from North East Africa to Australia with only stone tools (granted they followed the coasts). I don't see why you'd think metal would be necessary or am I missing something?
See here:
>>16256252
I realize they did have the ability to get there, and the standards for trade value would have been much lower, but I still wonder what they trafficked in and how valuable it was. The size of the boat would presumably affect this, and with a larger boat comes better construction materials.
I've also considered that they could have trafficked in slaves, or they could have used these trade routes and colonies as a way to unload the undesirable men (as an alternative to war).