🧵 Antidepressants: Do you think they are effective? Dangerous? Both?
Anonymous at Tue, 2 Jul 2024 23:04:32 UTC No. 16265098
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2017/11
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/d
https://worldpopulationreview.com/c
Many people are taking these drugs. Are they being harmed or helped by this treatment? Personally I believe they are being harmed as the chemical imbalance theory behind their use is coming under increasing scrutiny, many of these medications have serious side effects, some studies question their supposed efficacy, and I've read many anecdotes of their harm. I find the practice of trying many of them to see which ones work on a patient suspicious and fear it could be dangerous. What do you think?
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 01:50:48 UTC No. 16265266
>>16265098
try em out and find out.
youre a scientist arent you?
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 01:53:15 UTC No. 16265269
>>16265098
they work very well for some patients and make others suicidal. u should do a 23andme, look over all your serotonin-related genes, and see what literature is out there on your specific polymorphisms before deciding.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 02:00:36 UTC No. 16265276
I've taken them over 10 years of my life. I think they're bullshit.
They never made me feel different, happier, less anxious, or more-confident at all and the withdrawals were hell.
No one has any idea how consciousness works or how modulating serotonin changes anything, it's actual conjecture. If you include unpublished studies, SSRIs/SNRIs are no different than placebo.
Complete fucking scam, with a side of brain damage.
If giving it to someone gives them the hope and drive to get better (with the benefit of the 100% fake "it takes a month to fully take effect"), then great, but don't act like this is an actual solution.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 02:15:11 UTC No. 16265292
Tries multiple of them for years and none of them worked. So I abruptly stopped taking them and fell ill for a month or so, mostly feeling some sort of dizziness akin to vertigo. Now I simply have to find ways to distract me so I just can't feel depressed lol. Most of the time it doesn't work though
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 02:25:49 UTC No. 16265301
>>16265292
Tried*
Also check these posts I made
>>>/pol/472906515
>>>/pol/472906734
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 02:38:33 UTC No. 16265312
>>16265098
Personally didn't fo jack shit for me and I got much more help and insight from le spooky illegal brain frying drugs
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 02:40:51 UTC No. 16265314
>>16265098
They work by lowering IQ
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 05:04:10 UTC No. 16265472
The side effects are definitely real. The way they actually work is different. Some people are non responders, but most people become zombies. They aren't depressed, but that's usually because their serotonin is fucked up and their happiness ceiling is lowered to whatever their current depression level is. Life seems better because they're just dulled down to nothing. Case in point is that you can't even orgasm on higher doses of most drugs like Effexor
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 14:04:13 UTC No. 16265956
>>16265314
How?
If you show an actual evidence, I might consider quitting it.
When I search up, It helps depressive people not to be depressive and motives them to do mentally challenging tasks. Therefore, even if it decreases mental capacity, it is better to at least use the decreased capacity rather than just struggling in the bed. Moreover, It provides neurogenesis by increasing BDNF(brain-derived neurothropic factor). But It worsens the ADHD symptoms which I do have.
🗑️ Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 14:48:07 UTC No. 16266021
>>16265314
Not the original replier but here's a study showing similar cognitive impairment I just read.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar
And here's the rating scale they used https://www.bmc.org/sites/default/f
>MMSE scores of each patient were recorded prior to taking SSRIs and at weeks 3, 5, and 8 of drug therapy. Results. 50 patients met our inclusion criteria, with a baseline mean MMSE score of 23.94. At 3, 5, and 8 weeks of treatment, the mean scores were 22.1, 21.4, and 20.66, respectively. With a p value of <0.0001, the gradual decline was statistically significant. Conclusion. The MMSE scores of our patients showed a gradual decline over the consecutive weeks after taking SSRI drugs. It seems that the use of SSRIs in patients with depression or OCD, can cause cognitive dysfunction in the acute phase of treatment.
The MMSE score dropped just over 3 points on average. For context, a score of 24 to 30 means no cognitive impairment, 18-23 means mild cognitive impairment, and 17 and less means severe cognitive impairment. Considered the starting mean was 23.94 which would round to 24, this would give patients mild cognitive impairment. The study mentions that similar studies have found different results.
If you're considering going off antidepressants be careful as they can cause physical dependence (sometimes called physical addiction) which can have severe symptoms. These withdrawal symptoms resemble anxiety and depression itself which can lead people to believe they are relapsing on their mental illness and getting back on the medication which actually caused it. It's recommended you taper off with the assistance of a medical professional.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 14:50:17 UTC No. 16266026
>>16265956
Not the original replier but here's a study showing similar cognitive impairment I just read.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar
And here's the rating scale they used https://www.bmc.org/sites/default/f
>MMSE scores of each patient were recorded prior to taking SSRIs and at weeks 3, 5, and 8 of drug therapy. Results. 50 patients met our inclusion criteria, with a baseline mean MMSE score of 23.94. At 3, 5, and 8 weeks of treatment, the mean scores were 22.1, 21.4, and 20.66, respectively. With a p value of <0.0001, the gradual decline was statistically significant. Conclusion. The MMSE scores of our patients showed a gradual decline over the consecutive weeks after taking SSRI drugs. It seems that the use of SSRIs in patients with depression or OCD, can cause cognitive dysfunction in the acute phase of treatment.
The MMSE score dropped just over 3 points on average. For context, a score of 24 to 30 means no cognitive impairment, 18-23 means mild cognitive impairment, and 17 and less means severe cognitive impairment. Considering the starting mean was 23.94 which would round to 24, this would give patients mild cognitive impairment. The study mentions that similar studies have found different results.
If you're considering going off antidepressants be careful as they can cause physical dependence (sometimes called physical addiction) which can have severe symptoms. These withdrawal symptoms resemble anxiety and depression itself which can lead people to believe they are relapsing on their mental illness and getting back on the medication which actually caused it. It's recommended you taper off with the assistance of a medical professional.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 14:53:44 UTC No. 16266028
>>16265098
100% effective to increase profits, and only dangerous to the poor bastards who take that shit.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 14:59:44 UTC No. 16266032
>>16265098
They are very effective. They can be dangerous (aspirin can be dangerous too).
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:10:05 UTC No. 16266136
A botched lobotomy in pill form.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:28:16 UTC No. 16266156
>>16266136
>>16265314
I've heard the same sentiment from Peter Breggin. According to him the way psychiatric medications work is that they're all neurotoxic and give you brain damage which makes you more manageable for others and too stupefied to realize what's happening. This explains certain parts of antidepressants to me. It explains why they take 3 to 6 weeks to start taking effect despite entering one's blood stream in hours; that's how long it takes them to create noticeable damage.It also explains why there are so many side effects. I also notice some studies trying to prove the efficacy of antidepressants rely on patient self reporting, and the neurotoxin theory could cause some patients to report feeling better if they really aren't.
>>16266026
This study suggests this is possible. I notice that at 3 to 5 weeks when antidepressants are supposed to start taking effect in when people get cognitive decline, which could be evidence for the neurotoxic idea. I'd like to see a study with more frequent testing earlier on to test this, and to see if there's a correlation with ;improvement'. I'd also like to see how other cognitive tests fare. Maybe something that requires more quick thinking could show more drastic effects?
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:45:20 UTC No. 16266169
I was given an SSRI for years and seemed to experience permanent loss of libido, loss of interest in video games, and extreme high cholesterol. Now I have PSSD after discontinuation, and the depression is resuming so it's worse than the beginning.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:46:48 UTC No. 16266171
Works for me atm, I know it's not a permanent fix, but for the moment it helps me not burst out in tears and myalgia.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:56:40 UTC No. 16266181
>Older drugs that work that are now highly-scheduled or illegal "cause brain damage"
>SSRIs (SNRIs, bimodals, trimodals) that docs can prescribe you with zero scrutiny - they "rewire your brain and increase neuroplasticity."
Also:
>Older drugs - "These withdrawals mean the drug and the disease of addiction have taken over your body and you need to quit cold turkey right now or die."
>SSRIs - "It's not withdrawals reeee! It means that the drug was working and you need to keep taking it every day for life or you'll die."
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 16:59:50 UTC No. 16266188
>wow gee I'm depressed
>is my life fucked up because I've failed? or have no friends? or am stuck in a dead end? or worse?
>no my life is fine
>I work 55 hours a week
>it must be my brain chemistry
>fix me up doc
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:03:05 UTC No. 16266196
>>16265098
they help some people but they are overprescribed as fuck.
>depression? here's an SSRI
>anxiety? here's an SSRI
>chronic pain? here's an SSRI
Incidentally, you can blame the DEA for this because:
>psychostimulants can instantly snap almost anyone out of a severe depression instantly
>benzodiazepenes can instantly relieve anxiety
>opiates can (almost) instantly relieve intractable pain
... and prescribing guidelines were changed to make the most certain and effective medications to be the last resort, and even then only prescribed intermittently.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:04:19 UTC No. 16266204
>>16265098
just take CBD oil
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:09:32 UTC No. 16266215
>organ hurts
>serious wound
>infection
>broken bone
this is what doctors are for
>knees hurt
>back hurts
weight loss and gym have to fix these problems before they get worse, otherwise surgery and pain pills are what should be the last resort
>hallucinate or seeing things
>literally feel fucking sad
you need a spirit quest or some shit
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:13:58 UTC No. 16266224
>>16266196
Correct on all counts.
It's insulting when you go to psychs for decades, you tell them you've been on modern antidepressants 15 years of your life and they haven't helped you (because they haven't)... and you *know* they can easily help you, but they throw some newly-patented serotonin drug and an adjunct "mood stabilizer" (antipsychotic) at you. I was diagnosed with anxiety over 20 years ago and have lost multiple jobs from getting panic attacks, I've been on over 25 psych meds, but never once have I been allowed to even try a benzo. It's a big issue ruining my life, I just want to try the real anxiety meds. I have no criminal history, I just want help, and it's insulting at this point because they keep acting like saints helping me.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 17:16:57 UTC No. 16266232
>>16266224
Do meditation to train your mind. Anxiety medicine is a joke. This is a highly developed society and your whole life can be decided with a shitty slip of paper. Of course people are going to be anxious. You have to steel your mind to it and meditation is the only good way to do it.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 18:32:27 UTC No. 16266346
>>16265276
>>16266188
Goddamn rightwingers are stupid. Low serotonin was never claimed to be the cause of depression. However, increasing serotonin levels can reduce some of the symptoms of depression such as being a fucking loser. What benefit does a 40 year old with 100IQ have in constantly comparing himself to his boss? We're all on our own paths and SSRIs help some people continue that without killing themselves. It has helped me through shitty college semesters where I'd want to kill my professors and classmates.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 18:41:13 UTC No. 16266355
>>16266346
Statistically speaking, no.
And this is why libshits are always wrong.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 18:44:30 UTC No. 16266359
>>16266346
>Low serotonin was never claimed to be the cause of depression
What are you talking about? That is the prevailing theory behind all modern depression drugs. If you grew up in the 90s you were inundated with ads about the synaptic cleft and how all your problems have been solved by science. Psychs in 2024 literally tell you:
>Depression? Lack of serotonin
>Anxiety? Lack of confidence via lack of serotonin
>Pain? Lack of serotonin
They still say this shit, even the best docs in fancy buildings.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 18:57:49 UTC No. 16266376
>>16266346
I agree, and I took SSRIs for 12 years.
The online right will complain about social decline and then razz people about taking drugs that help them be well-adjusted and functional members of society.
My twenties and the rest of my life were made inconceivably worse because poltards convinced me to stop taking them and I subsequently became too paranoid to ever try them again despite my glaring issues. I had zero complaints on the medication except for sweating easily, but since I've been off them I've been a complete dysfunctional mess, pushed away all my friends, contemplate suicide daily, and am constantly bombarded by thoughts that would traumatize a normie if ever said to them.
At first I deluded myself into believing that I was finally "experiencing reality" but as the years rolled by it became increasingly clear that I simply kicked out the support rod that was enabling me to live a normal life and engage in a broader range of activities beyond sitting in my room.
Retarded opinions can ruin a nigga's life and nobody will be the wiser for it.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 19:38:10 UTC No. 16266454
>>16266156
>they're all neurotoxic and give you brain damage
They interfere with sleep. Acute sleep deprivation also fixes depression.
Neurotoxicity isn't necessary: it's easy to remember talking to your crush. SSRIs remove the stress and that situation will be mundane and forgettable.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 19:50:58 UTC No. 16266477
>>16265098
Antidepressants is a bandaid on a flesh wound. The cause is lacking serotonin production. Virtually all serotonin is produced by the gut microbiome*, and around half of the dopamin. Something is disrupting our microbiome and it is generally the modern diet. It's so streamlined for practical and economic reasons that we simply cannot be healthy with it.
Keep dismissing this and civilisation won't take the next step.
>0:39:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mio
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 21:00:09 UTC No. 16266610
>>16266346
>Low serotonin was never claimed to be the cause of depression. However, increasing serotonin levels
I know you're going to get shit for your attitude, but this is actually a very helpful, reassuring distinction that was HARD to find elucidated when I was going through my "psychiatry is quack science that doesn't even measure neurotransmitter levels" phase, and I swear I'm not a chud.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 21:11:08 UTC No. 16266629
>>16266610
Serotonin is increased within a day of starting but the drug only "starts working" after weeks. The proximal cause is therefore the body's response to increased synaptic serotonin, namely a loss/downregulation/internalization
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 22:34:22 UTC No. 16266774
>>16265098
Check out tardive dysphoria and neonatal Clomipramine rat depression model.
These drugs should be banned for pregnant women entirely and people under 20.
I took these drugs(ssri) from age 17 to 24 and i believe im not the same as i was before. I have severe insomnia not stress resistant at all tachycardia depression some unspecific movement disorder and so on, im basically non functiona at this point. All signs of raped serotonergic and dopaminergic system imo.
I think if you are over 20 years old or so and you have a fully developed brain you will probably get away with taking the drugs for even up to a couple of years in most cases. everything above that is screaming for trubble. Just look at tardive dyskenisia, the chance of getting it rises with every year of antipsychotic therapy.
And lets not talk about that these drugs often times arent any more effective than placebo and its shown that the long term outcomes are worse with ssri therapy in general.
Doctors are playing with fire and they dont realize it, in the end we as patients have to pay the prize for their lavish ignorance, maybe even for a lifetime.
Its probably way more save to take benzodiazepines or opiates long term than this garbage. I have never heard of any drug class creating so many problems in so many people besides antipsychotics maybe.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/218
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 23:08:35 UTC No. 16266825
>>16265098
i have PE since i stopped taking AD. My glans and the area under it is sensitive af
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 23:32:12 UTC No. 16266861
>>16266346
>Low serotonin was never claimed to be the cause of depression.
Psychiatrists and their pharmaceutical handlers tend to be quite shady when it comes to their profession. Sure, now they may claim they never truly believed in the chemical imbalance theory but that hasn't stopped them from peddling SSRIs and other drugs to people based on the notion that the drugs would magically fix something gone wrong in the head of the people.
>However, increasing serotonin levels can reduce some of the symptoms of depression such as being a fucking loser
So, knowing that there's probably nothing physically wrong in your brain, your solution consists in messing up homeostasis which effectively amounts to brain damage?
>>16266610
>reassuring distinction that was HARD to find elucidated when I was going through my "psychiatry is quack science that doesn't even measure neurotransmitter levels" phase, and I swear I'm not a chud.
You're missing the point here. Obviously, people with some kind of expertise in neurology cannot take the hypothesis seriously because there simply is no substance to it. However, this has inadverently lead to another problem which is serotonin resistance. Ignoring all the other side effects here for once which, even in the best case scenarios, don't really make the drugs worthwhile.
But this is different from how they communicated such issues to their patients.Currently, psychologists and psychiatrists are all over the place when it comes to pushing "neurodiversity" as different "brain functions", despite the fact that the proof for that is precisely missing. In 40 years or so, they will claim that they never truly believed in it but this isn't communicated.
Anonymous at Wed, 3 Jul 2024 23:38:11 UTC No. 16266875
>SSRIs help some people continue that without killing themselves
Funny because SSRIs massively increase risk for both suicides and suicidal ideation. They are also strongly linked to and associated with aggression and school shootings, among other acts of violence.
>>16266376
>then razz people about taking drugs that help them be well-adjusted and functional members of society
Is drugging people, especially if the drugs can cause severe damage, worth it so they become "well-adjusted" and "functional" members of society? How is this different from lobotomizing them? This is an incredibly cucked position since you derive your sense of self-esteem from what you can do for others.
>but since I've been off them I've been a complete dysfunctional mess, pushed away all my friends, contemplate suicide daily, and am constantly bombarded by thoughts that would traumatize a normie if ever said to them
Your brain adjusted to the oversaturation of whatever it was that you ingested. Now that you came off that stuff, your body failed to adjust back, hence you now suffer, seemingly non-stop, from withdrawal symptoms. It sucks yet that precisely is extremely common with anti-depressants.
>that was enabling me to live a normal life and engage in a broader range of activities beyond sitting in my room
Again, you took performance-enhancing drugs in an attempt to "adjust" to society for whatever particular reason, now you mistake the post-SSRI withdrawal symptoms for an extremely vague and poorly defined notion of depression.
Anonymous at Thu, 4 Jul 2024 18:50:42 UTC No. 16267921
Understanding these drugs is hard, which is why I started this thread. But after having some days to read and think about things I think I’m starting to understand.
Let’s take a few studies:
https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/funding/cl
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/funding/cl
The first study is critical of anti-depressants, but the other two seem positive, which puzzled me. How can a drug do nothing better than placebo and make teens try to kill themselves at 10* the rate in one trial, but be successful in others? But after reading some criticism of the other studies, I feel like I’m starting to understand these drugs better and science as a whole. Both the STARD and TADS studies only let me see a q&a rather than the study itself, which is suspicious. Looking at the results, the STARD study did not use placebo to have a control group, so we don’t know which effects are real; and kind of hides the fact that huge portions of people dropped out. After reading a criticism of the study from someone who was able to read it in full, I learned there were many more problems in it and they argued the true treatment rate was only a couple percent. I haven’t finished reading the criticism of the TADS study. Despite the flaws of the STARD study, many people are still using it as “proof” antidepressants work. And even if we take the study at its word, there’s still 1/3 of patients who do not benefit after 4 rounds of treatment and have less and less likelihood to respond to more rounds of medication.
Anonymous at Thu, 4 Jul 2024 18:56:49 UTC No. 16267929
>>16267921
Something else I find notable is that everyone confidently says that antidepressants work by increasing serotonin, from doctors to teachers to commercials and news media, but when we read the FDA label (https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/dru
>Although the exact mechanism of PROZAC is unknown, it is presumed to be linked to its inhibition of CNS neuronal uptake of serotonin.
>presumed
I also find it interesting how serotonin and dopamine are described in media, pop science articles, layman’s medical journals as simple happy chemicals, but they mysteriously drop these views when discussing how antipsychotics work.
Anonymous at Thu, 4 Jul 2024 19:17:26 UTC No. 16267952
>>16267929
I was in psychosis multiple times. I laughed quite a lot more than usual and felt painfully "happy", especially in a later episode where things weren't as severe and the world wasn't in such a bad place anymore. Wouldn't recommend because it causes neuron loss.
Anonymous at Thu, 4 Jul 2024 19:33:58 UTC No. 16267978
>>16266774
>I took these drugs(ssri) from age 17 to 24 and i believe im not the same as i was before.
Of course you're not the same as you were at age 17, the brain still matures until age 25.
>I have severe insomnia not stress resistant at all tachycardia depression some unspecific movement disorder and so on
Unironically sounds exactly like long covid.
Anonymous at Fri, 5 Jul 2024 08:27:05 UTC No. 16268696
I've been thinking and reading more. As a layperson, the clinical approach to prescribing antidepressants seems unscientific to me. Antidepressants take a long time to work. How long? It depends who you ask. One source will say 2 weeks, another 12, some 4 to 6 weeks, others 6 to 8, sometimes 3 to 6. How are antidepressants administered? The STAR*D study tells me how. You keep taking pills, waiting, seeing if they work, changing you dose, waiting more, switching or adding something on, waiting more so on and so forth. That study found that ~70% of people are cured...over the course of a year...and not counting the people who dropped out of the study...and without counting relapses months later...and with no placebo control group.
>take pills
>don't feel better
>take pills
>don't feel better
>take pills
>feel better
>"See!? See!? The pills work!"
This feels like pseudoscience to me. We don't know how or why the pills work, they just mess around with the medication, adding stuff, removing stuff, changing dosage, and once the patient happens to get better the clinicians declare the patient cured and the medication a success. Why do these drugs work that way? Is there any evidence as to why? Because it seems like magical thinking.
Clinicians claim that antidepressants take a long time to start working but they do start working. I want to know why and what evidence there is for the explanation.