Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 13:42:35 UTC No. 16270292

No
Yes

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 13:47:12 UTC No. 16270294

Maybe, but you cant do that. Uncertainty principle presents that for all the bits that make us up, neither their position nor momentum (velocity) can be found exactly. The best you can do is probably to create something that has the same likelihoods of looking some way as does whatever makes your consciousness. On a larger scale, maybe rotating a single neuron a bit could set off a process leading to someone developing dementia. The brain (where i assume most of the mind is stored) is incredibly mathematically complex, even at scales far removed from the quantum mechanical, and it becomes exceedingly difficult to determine or even to discuss how slight changes to such a system will affect its functioning. Knowing chaos, it will probably be different, but good luck making use of that. People die if you change it up too much tho, so be careful

sage at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 14:09:58 UTC No. 16270314

I'll do you one better. What if you perfectly simulated the same exact spatio-temporal arrangement of matter, the positions of atoms, and their velocities within a computer system? Would there be conscious experience? Would it be the same conscious experience?

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 14:37:50 UTC No. 16270347

>>16270284

matter is a result of energy. Your body doesn’t create choices. Spirit, soul and body = a human being. The body is just the vessel. You can leave your body (death, near death experience, etc.) and still make choices without the chemicals and matter of the body

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 14:44:10 UTC No. 16270354

>>16270347

People who are blind from birth don't dream in images. People who are deaf from birth don't dream in sound. Give me one example of a thought that isn't dependent on sense-perception or somatosensory modalities. Protip. You can't.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 14:49:47 UTC No. 16270356

>>16270294
>Uncertainty principle presents that for all the bits that make us up, neither their position nor momentum (velocity) can be found exactly
This is wrong btw

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 14:59:19 UTC No. 16270363

>>16270284
Superdeterminism is real. But that doesn’t make your choices any less of your own doing.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:09:13 UTC No. 16270371

>>16270363

I've never once seen a determinist say "If determinism is real. Then I have permission to commit any crimes I want because I can't help it!" It's always a free will believer trying to make a straw man that says this. In a determinist framework, a troublemaker would be dealt with mostly the same as they are now. The only difference would be the language and rationale behind it.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:12:56 UTC No. 16270373

>>16270284

Who would you rather trust.

1. Free will believer who has to constantly and actively "choose" not to rape or murder you.
2. Determinism believer who doesn't suffer with having to make those choices in the first place. They simply don't have the propensity, proclivity, predisposition, capacity, or capability to commit such an act. It simply isn't their nature.

Geez it's a tough choice.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:19:31 UTC No. 16270378

>>16270373
Thank you for your wisdom, GigaChad

bodhi at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:26:09 UTC No. 16270384

>>16270354
>People who are blind from birth don't dream in images. People who are deaf from birth don't dream in sound
prove it

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:26:57 UTC No. 16270385

>>16270384

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpUW9pm9wxs

Not my fault you take your sense experiences for granted.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:28:33 UTC No. 16270386

>>16270284
consciousness doesn’t come from chemicals and matter. Science doesn’t understand spirit yet and most scientists are a part of some spiritually dead religion so their view of spirituality and consciousness is completely backwards or carnal. When science merges with spirit and I don’t mean religion, then it will have the answers for all the things it can’t figure out at the current moment. Some scientists are atheists and don’t even believe in spirit but wonder why nothing makes sense. Consciousness and matter is an expression of energy

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:29:34 UTC No. 16270389

>>16270373
Your argument presents a false dichotomy that oversimplifies complex philosophical concepts and human behavior. Here's why:

>Misrepresentation of Free Will
Believing in free will does not mean one is constantly battling urges to commit harmful acts. Most people do not regularly face such extreme moral dilemmas. Free will encompasses a broad range of choices, many of which are mundane and not morally significant. For the majority, the decision to act ethically is ingrained through social norms, personal values, and upbringing, not a constant struggle.

>Simplistic View of Determinism
Determinism does not imply moral purity or an inherent incapacity for harm. It simply means that our actions are influenced by prior causes, such as genetics, environment, and experiences. A determinist can still commit harmful acts if their prior influences predispose them to such behavior. Determinism doesn’t negate the capacity for moral and ethical behavior; it just frames it differently.

>Trustworthiness and Human Behavior
Trustworthiness involves qualities like honesty, reliability, and empathy, which are developed through social interactions, education, and personal experiences. Whether one believes in free will or determinism, these traits are cultivated in a complex social context. The nature of a person’s belief in free will or determinism does not inherently make them more or less trustworthy.

bodhi at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:29:42 UTC No. 16270390

>>16270385

blind people have been documented as using use echo location Echo location only works if your mind can build images from the sound (and have spatial awareness where those images fit into a mind's eye 3d= dimensional mapping system). So as always the people on this board a plumb fucking stupid and just make shit up as they go


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IKT2akh0Ng

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:30:05 UTC No. 16270391

>>16270389
>Realistic Human Conduct
In reality, most people do not live their lives contemplating heinous acts. Our behavior is significantly shaped by societal norms, laws, and personal values. Both free will believers and determinists live within these frameworks, which guide their actions more than abstract philosophical beliefs.

>Philosophical and Psychological Insights
Philosophical and psychological perspectives suggest that human behavior results from a complex interplay of genetic, environmental, and cognitive factors. Reducing this to a binary choice between free will and determinism overlooks the nuanced realities of human conduct.

>Conclusion
The dichotomy you present is overly simplistic and not reflective of the complexities of human morality and behavior. Both free will believers and determinists can be equally trustworthy. Trustworthiness is shaped by a combination of personal values, social conditioning, and moral development, not merely by one’s philosophical stance on free will or determinism.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:30:50 UTC No. 16270392

>>16270390
>from birth
Retard

bodhi at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:32:42 UTC No. 16270394

>>16270392
>strawman implying only people blind from birth can use echo location
Why would i ever expect anything more from one of the morons here

bodhi at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:33:43 UTC No. 16270395

>>16270392
That was rhetorical btw. I dont expect it

bodhi at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:35:40 UTC No. 16270396

>>16270392
btw another wrench on your false statement is that hearing is required to know there is sound. It isnt, it vibrates and people with tinnitus hear ringing sounds that arent there. So implying deaf people do not "hear" is pure whimsical nonsense you just made up

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:44:24 UTC No. 16270401

>>16270384

>I don't need my eyes to see. I can transcendentally "see" things using my magical mystical abilities.

Weird how people born with no eyes never seem to be able to do this.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:47:32 UTC No. 16270406

Does your brain depend on the laws of physics? Then determinism is true.

Does physics obey your brain so your decisions truly originate from you? Then free will is true.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:48:27 UTC No. 16270407

>>16270406

Do physics obey animals as well? Or is there something magical and special about humans? What about mentally retarded humans? Do they count?

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 15:49:40 UTC No. 16270409

>>16270407
Well physics don’t obey the human brain to begin with, so it probably doesn’t obey animal brains either.

bodhi at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 16:24:39 UTC No. 16270434

>>16270401
bitch I just posted a video of blind guy literally describing the dimensions of a tree with just sound

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 16:33:41 UTC No. 16270439

>>16270373
Who would you rather trust?

1. The guy who says he is in control of his behavior and consciously decided that he will never cause harm to you
or
2. The guy who says he has no control over his behavior and maybe his deterministic programming will cause him to kill you

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 16:40:45 UTC No. 16270446

>>16270439

>The only reason I didn't rob you of all your belongings is because I had to use my free will to stop me!

Phew. Thanks.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 16:41:44 UTC No. 16270448

>>16270284
Determinism is unfalsifiable even without needing to bring up quantum soiface popsci shit, but it and resulting fatalism is still probably true because reality is gay and boring

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 19:39:09 UTC No. 16270639

>>16270439
I trust the second guy because the first guy is stupid and a liar.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 19:45:45 UTC No. 16270643

>>16270639
>because
No, that's not the reason. Don't try to justify your "decisions". You have no control over your behavior or your preferences.

Anonymous at Sat, 6 Jul 2024 21:13:27 UTC No. 16270746

>>16270284
>Is consciousness and "choices" anything more than just arrangements of chemicals, causality, and antecedence?
Yes.
>If we re-created the same exact spatio-temporal arrangement of matter, the positions of atoms, and their velocities. Would it suddenly be different?
You couldn't. It's impossible both in theory and in practice. The very first obstacle is that we don't know what consciousness i.e. qualia really is. In fact, it is fundamentally undefinable, and thus uncomputable. Yet even if you could in theory recreate an adult's brain, you'd probably end up inputing some data, as opposed to allowing it to grow up organically, which may very well be a prerequisite of consc. And lastly, you would never ever be able to check if your experiment has worked, just like you can't be certain that other people apart from yourself are consc. How could you ever know that such an artificial brain is truly consc., and not just pretending to be consc?