Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:07:13 UTC No. 16445227

>>16445122
>Capitalism is an asymmetrical system.
The distribution of global goods and services is presently asymmetrical and always will be. Even if you give the poorest African a comfortable home and subsistence, they'll want better of both. 20th century socialists learned the hard way that you can't plug human nature into an equation very easily.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:18:16 UTC No. 16445232

>>16445122
>There is not enough energy to go around.
We're not even at Kardashev level one yet.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:18:42 UTC No. 16445233

>>16445122
real capitalism has never been tried
https://odysee.com/@Realfake_Newsource:9/RFNS-8.22-001-023:9

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:23:55 UTC No. 16445235

>>16445122
damn you're right, perpetual increase is impossible because of finite resources, I can't believe literally no capitalist economists have realized this

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:36:18 UTC No. 16445244

>>16445122
Define capitalism

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:40:47 UTC No. 16445248

>>16445122
Why does capitalism need/demand perpetual growth, what is the basis and source of that postulate in the cannonized annals of capitalisms constitution?

Raphael at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:53:48 UTC No. 16445265

>>16445122
You don’t know shit

The average iq is 100 there isn’t a shred of wealth for them to have because they can’t posses it


Go go biz it’s all average fags gambling on shitcoins like monkeys

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 03:59:02 UTC No. 16445271

>>16445265
I have a trillion dollar business idea but "capitalists" might not like it

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 04:58:06 UTC No. 16445333

>>16445271
Let your mom bang everybody in Africa a thousand times for a dollar apiece?

🗑️ Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 05:36:36 UTC No. 16445354

>>16445248
The growth parameters are defined by gdp. An increase in gdp is growth. So an increase in gdp can create greater economic activity which can provide the public with a greater quality of life. As people have jobs. And can buy things etc.

A growth in gdp can be defined as change following thermodynamics change must occur because entropy will take effect the system will become disordered.

Think of it like cleaning your room the longer you keep it In that state of redundancy it Will become more disordered over time. Until you clean it which is change.

Now here lies the problem this change in economics requires more and more energy consumption. An increase in gdp consumes more energy thus we use our energy stockpiles faster.

Also we are fighting debt deflation. Which caused the great depression. The assets we own must be worth more then the debt we owe for them.

Imagine you owing more money on your mortgage then the house is worth. That is a real nightmare for creditors.

So we are caught in a perpetual loop that is unsustainable there is not enough to keep the show going.

I've seen quality publications dating back decades stating 2025 is when the crisis begins.

Energy has already peaked in 2019 according to some energy companies. The eia says energy production in the US is set to peak in 2025.

Hold on boys we are definitely fucked

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 05:46:51 UTC No. 16445355

>>16445265
Yes. But that's trading. Which is gambling or speculating.

That's not real economics though. That's just the financialization side. That's how companies or businesses raise money to fund buisness ventures. Which are also speculative.

That has nothing to do with the means of production, money isn't the problem it isn't real.

But what is real is material resources. You can't print copper or trees or oil.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 05:58:48 UTC No. 16445356

>>16445354
Are you going to address any of the points people posted above, or you just going to keep yammering like a weed addled faggot?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 05:58:54 UTC No. 16445357

>>16445354
Well I think the seed of the notion of growth begins with the notion of, being fruitful and multiplying, population growth for starters:
For parents who have a large amount of children, say 8 kids, just went from 2 economic entities (parents) in the economic arena (a nation, a city, a town) to manifesting an additional now 8 economic agents whom will require a lifetime of economic productivity.

Thus growth in population kind of demands growth in viable economic activitiy

But then, let's imagine for clarity of our understanding and theories sake, a nation exists for 1000 years in which it's population hovers continuously around the same total number:

There are opportunities for this nation to extremely economically grow and become wealthy in this time (there are smallish nations where that pop. trend might be somewhat accurate)?
An easy answer would be foreign trading importance. Again for comprehension sake, let's imagine 1000 years no external trade.

What could the nature of economic growth in such a nation appear as?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 06:26:52 UTC No. 16445366

>>16445248
>Why does capitalism need/demand perpetual growth
incentive structure. More capital produces better outcomes for the participants so rationally they will seek to maximize their capital at all costs

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 06:55:12 UTC No. 16445389

>>16445122
Humans are a cancer. Cancer doesn't act logically, it kills it's own host, it only acts in accordance with it's nature

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 07:07:14 UTC No. 16445404

>>16445389

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 07:08:09 UTC No. 16445406

>>16445122

> How was there not variables for resource availability added?

I'm not a Milton Friedman-ite, but, there is. Notice that the quantities are "Supply price" and "Demand price" not "Want to supply price" and "wish we could afford price."

Resource constraints are literally the direct upward pressure on supply costs for almost every economic model you will find outside of some first-week freshman undergrad course. If the bare resource you need to produce something is scarce, it will be expensive and difficult, thus increasing your minimum supply costs. As the resource becomes more scarce, what do you think happens to supply costs?

The main way this goes haywire is if there are artificial mechanisms preventing resource costs from being born by the producer of the good (e.g., subsidies by a government, subsidization by some outside holding company in the case of a loss leader). Sans these kinds of subsidization, resource constraints will increase minimum viable supply price, including eventually eclipsing what many can afford.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 07:57:54 UTC No. 16445450

When are the mods gonna weed out lefty pol from this board? Idgaf about your stupid system, go back to your gay website. I'm here to talk science you nigger, not capitalism.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:06:53 UTC No. 16445457

>>16445406
I'm talking about systems perspective on economic models or theory.

I agree with the artificial demand by government. It's insane. They are also creating a moral hazard. People no longer take accountability in society because government is always their to bail. Them out.

You don't like your partner daddy government is here to steal half the money.

You don't want to work guess who's here to house you and feed you?

Make bad bets gambling on Wallstreet. The fed will buy your troubled assets.

Everyone is a victim now nobody is at fault.

I call it a redistribution of liability. It has made everyone insane

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:08:27 UTC No. 16445459

>>16445450
systems science is science you idiot.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:17:53 UTC No. 16445465

>>16445389
facts

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:25:43 UTC No. 16445473

>>16445465
Half you faggots just spout nonsense jargon all day with no clear understanding of what your saying.

Like can you apply mathematics to a system using critical thinking?

Like have you ever used phase space reconstruction to mesure classical systems. Like economics.

Have you people learned any engineering?

Or is it math rules dood. And that's about it of your education

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:30:11 UTC No. 16445476

>>16445122
>The asymmetry is tied to the growth parameter and resource availability.
Ok so a growth rate of 0.0000000001% per year ought to last until the sun burns out and satisfy your made up condition of positive growth rate. Seems mathematically sound to me

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:31:55 UTC No. 16445477

>>16445366
>incentive structure.
Wow so people just want more, hence not having more is impossible, hence why poverty doesnt exist

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:40:27 UTC No. 16445483

>>16445476
Yea asshole it's more complicated then that. The inflation rate is tied to overall debt outstanding to prevent debt deflation which is believed to be what caused the great depression.

Growth is tied to inflation and inflation is tied to debt.. and gdp

The correct way to look at it is stimulation of demand.

What are we demand are we stimulating? The means of production. Ie goods and services

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:43:06 UTC No. 16445484

>>16445477
>.poverty doesn't exist

I've been coming to thar realization lately. Are birds in poverty? Are animals in the wild in poverty. Theoretically the earth provides everything we need.

So poverty is self created by man

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:56:32 UTC No. 16445494

>>16445483
>Yea asshole it's more complicated then that.
No it isnt
Have 1% growth rate the first year
0.1% growth rate next year
0.01% after another year
And so on, have a growth rate of 1/X %, where X is the number of years from now on
Seems pretty sustainable, you said capitalism required growth, this is what growth looks like

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 09:02:27 UTC No. 16445497

>>16445122
Mathcels ruined physics and now they want to ruin economics too?

EBOK at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:08:00 UTC No. 16445541

Capitalism just boosts the rich. It's not really a system for us.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:23:57 UTC No. 16445552

>>16445494
No man it's a non linear system.

This is your problem your arguing with a person that has studied economics over 12 years

Just listen and learn. Everything doesn't have to be an argument.

It's OK yo not know something

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:29:20 UTC No. 16445556

>>16445541
That's misinformation anon. The system works at scale for the masses.

Can you make iPhones In your house.

A car?

Do you know how to manage livestock to create food?

No capitalism does that for you so you can bitch and whine on the internet about how bad capital man is shafting you. While capital man made the reliable tech your using.

How ironic

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:31:43 UTC No. 16445559

>>16445552
>This is your problem your arguing with a person that has studied economics over 12 years
I studied economics for over 13 years, i think we can say whos the master and whos the slave
Know your place, slave

EBOK at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 11:08:54 UTC No. 16445572

>>16445556
Good systems produce this effect. You haven't provided any information regarding the authenticity of capitalism providing this effect stability and fairly.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 11:51:16 UTC No. 16445589

>>16445572
>You haven't provided any information regarding the authenticity of capitalism
Circa 90% of all physical wealth produced in the USA is consumed by the masses, not the rich overlords. Likely 95% in Europe, and below 70% in Brazil

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 12:15:30 UTC No. 16445600

>economics should be le rational!

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 13:10:10 UTC No. 16445639

>>16445457
Economists don't know a fucking thing about mathematical modeling. They don't get into the basics of what a typical undergraduate systems engineering or applied math/applied physics curriculum will cover in terms of systems modeling until halfway through a master's degree.

Yes, most macroeconomic textbooks teach a naive way of looking at supply and demand, but you're even more retarded than them if you don't think that resource constraints factor into how businesses and econometricians think about supply and demand.

Yes, they ideological chase growth in a way that of you were to sit down with them one on one they'd tell you is unsustainable. That goal of growth is exactly that, an idealized goal, not something anyone with sense thinks is possible.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 13:13:02 UTC No. 16445644

>>16445639
>That goal of growth is exactly that, an idealized goal, not something anyone with sense thinks is possible.
Growth is just people getting richer.
Dont you want to get richer? Many do and they do get richer.
Thats growth and its perfectly possible, you think no one in the history of the world got richer?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 13:18:20 UTC No. 16445649

>>16445644
> Growth is just people getting richer.

Yes, and for everyone who has gotten richer through success, there are dozens who have ended up in financial ruin following much the same path.

> Thats growth and its perfectly possible, you think no one in the history of the world got richer?

Some systems fundamentally are zero-sum. Not all of them are. There are circumstances where someone growing does not come at the cost of others. Generally speaking, growth in a business comes at the cost of their competitors not doing as well unless the market is still early enough in its development that it is not saturated. Growth is possible, but not generally for everyone at once. As a result, setting a target for "growth, no matter what" is setting a target that almost by definition more people and firms will miss than hit.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 13:34:01 UTC No. 16445667

Capitalism relies on capital markets.
Do we have any reason to believe failures in capital markets always result in recoverable boom-bust cycles? Because if you can't boom from a bust then you are genocided.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 14:13:11 UTC No. 16445715

>>16445122
We're not even a Type I civilization on the Kardashev scale yet. There are orders of magnitude more mass and energy available in the solar system, which is increasingly becoming feasible with SpaceX.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 15:10:40 UTC No. 16445786

>>16445122
Anon this conjecture was proven wrong in the 70s. We haven't tapped 1% of what solar power can output, we haven't dug into 0.01% of the Earth's crust. The population density of the planet is only like 50 people per sqkm. It can keep growing for a very long time. The market corrects for scarcity by raising prices, finding something else, or finding a new way to extract.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:07:02 UTC No. 16445878

>>16445649
>Some systems fundamentally are zero-sum. Not all of them are.
Not the world we live in. In our world, net growth is possible. You just have to create wealth that didnt exist before. I do that every day at work.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:14:56 UTC No. 16445891

>>16445649
>>16445878
also, my work where i create net wealth us fairly easy, i work at a factory, i take industrial inputs that are relatively cheap, process them and turn them into items of greater value. The wealth i create is the value difference. Its like making an omelette, you make an omelette and you create wealth equal to the omelette value minus the value of the eggs, which are much cheaper than the omelette.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:17:39 UTC No. 16445895

capitalism doesn't require or care about perpetual growth.
capitalism is a construction of rights for normal individuals to have ownership of the means of production. that's it.

it contrasts with the previous systems of economy which reserved the right of ownership to pre-ordained strata of society, like nobility and guilds.
it contrasts with socialism which slightly alters capitalism to construct a system of rights that dictate whomever operates the means of production has exclusive ownership of it.

in a capitalist system, i can build a workshop and have people work in it, telling them what to do, and this is to be backed up by a court of the land.

in a socialist system, i can build a workshop and have people work in it, however the workers will decide what to do and how this workshop interacts with the world outside of it. i'm not part of the picture.

a capitalist system is a superset of a socialist system, as you can have a co-op in a capitalist system, but there are expressions of legal "management" which can't occur in a socialist system.
the problems people normally identify with capitalism are actually cultural issues. I posit that if you take America as it is today and restructure the legal codes only so far as to implement socialist economics, you would still see much of the destructive and malicious behavior people normally pin to capitalism. because the underlying causes of these issues are fundamentally of a social nature, not of a formalized bureaucratic one.

it's as simple as that.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:32:42 UTC No. 16445930

>>16445644
>Growth is just people getting richer.
The economy has been a zero-sum game since the Egyptians. The ultra-wealthy today are no more wealthy than a Vizier of Egypt 8000 years ago. And if an objective metric and identity could be assigned to value and traced through history, you would be shocked to find that essentially all of it could be traced back to those time periods. Even exploitation of additional resources isn't true growth, as it can only be claimed with additional labor power or technology which increases efficiency at the cost of quality, and the linear consumption of raw materials is not additive to workable material.

The lower bound of wealth sees improvements to quality of life, while the upper bound of wealth has been steadily eroding since humanity civilized itself. Additional labor power's drain on logisitical and societal overhead is massively underestimated. The inferiority of industrial goods are also massively underestimated.

There is a large and endemic failure of economists to account for the enshittification of society. Often it's completely wrapped up in delusional fairy tales of a more advanced society than those primitive ancestors of ours. It is considered irrelevant to the economist that our concrete requires rebar and crumbles in the span of a few decades. That our synthetic dyes fade within a few months of exposure to the sun. That our clothes fall to pieces in a few years. Our food is less nutritious by volume.

When the whole picture is accounted for, down to the very last detail, you understand that supposed "growth" is merely an illusion. It is inflation. Nothing more.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:41:07 UTC No. 16445943

>>16445878
>>16445891

You have an overly idealistic worldview on how competition works (naive even). This is likely because you exist in a niche market that is not yet saturated. You are just not yet on the zero-sum part of the curve. If thousands of others come into your niche with similar skills, your choices will be to either find a new non-zero-sum niche to occupy, or participate in a zero-sum game.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:42:53 UTC No. 16445945

>>16445943
This is not what a zero sum world looks like

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:43:12 UTC No. 16445947

>>16445930
>The economy has been a zero-sum game since the Egyptians. The ultra-wealthy today are no more wealthy than a Vizier of Egypt 8000 years ago. A
Theres many more wealthy people today, millions of millionaires. Google says theres 62.5 million millionaires in the world, which is 20 times the population of ancient egypt. You cant have such condition without economic growth.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:45:23 UTC No. 16445951

>>16445945

You are in fact unbelievably naive. Are you quite young, or have you just had a fortunate enough family life that you haven't had to face reality yet.

Look at the standards of living for people that exist in most of those growing nations. Hell, look at the standards for most industries within the US. Margins are unbelievably thin, competition is razor edged and cut throat. That kind of environment is very much zero sum.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:46:43 UTC No. 16445953

>>16445951
Nice anecdotes and ad hominem dumbass, but this is the science board

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:47:10 UTC No. 16445954

>>16445953
There's no "science" behind your bullshitting about "population growth means non-zero sum economy."

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:48:15 UTC No. 16445956

>>16445943
>This is likely because you exist in a niche market that is not yet saturated.
The global market as a whole can never be saturared. Saturation is a function of market relations, for instance its obvious that the market for metallurgical coke is a function of the market for steel, all markets have to growth in unison, but they have no upper limits as a whole.
When new competitors enter a market they can steal customers from each others, sure that happens, but the market still grows because the customer base also expand.
The economy is an extremely simple system and your childish "complexity" copes are just an excuse you use to mask your idiocy. You are literally saying the easiest thing in the world is too complex for you, i feel sad for you, you should consider MAID

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:49:12 UTC No. 16445959

GUYS WHAT IF WE JUST IGNORE NEGATIVE EXTERNALITIES

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:49:16 UTC No. 16445960

>>16445951
>You are in fact unbelievably naive. Are you quite young

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:49:23 UTC No. 16445961

>>16445956
What happens when overproduction occurs? Have you just never considered that circumstance?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:49:52 UTC No. 16445963

>>16445954
You're either trolling or too dumb to be worth talking to lol.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:50:28 UTC No. 16445965

>>16445960
I'm not a communist or socialist. I'm very much a capitalist. I'm just not a retard that believes in the "magical hand of the free market" to solve all of our problems.

Capitalism works well specifically because it is able to adapt to resource constraints, not because it naively pretends they don't exist like yourself.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 16:51:47 UTC No. 16445969

>>16445963
Have you considered investing in a mirror? You might find some self reflection could result in some non-zero sum personal growth :^)

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:14:02 UTC No. 16446007

>>16445961
>What happens when overproduction occurs?
Overproduction doesnt really happen except as short term incidents, say some company estimated there would be a demand for 1 million bars of soap, but customers only bought 999.999 bars, theres one extra bar of soap unsold.
It just goes into inventory and is sold later

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:15:12 UTC No. 16446011

>>16445122
>growth parameter and resource availability
Growth just makes more resources available? This isn't some ancient empire that needs to conquer more land to feed people, we can multiply human labor several times with technology. The argument just isn't cogent. How can you watch the global population drift from subsistence to an American standard of living and claim it's zero sum?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:15:20 UTC No. 16446012

>>16445965
>. I'm very much a capitalist. I'm just not a retard that believes in the "magical hand of the free market"
You are not a capitalist and you are only fighting demons in your own mind.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:17:20 UTC No. 16446014

>>16445122
>Yes the capitalist system is more efficient but your not adding more resources to the pile. Your just finding better ways to extract more out of the existing pike.
Pretending innovation doesn't exist? Also, no system adds resources to the pile. What on earth are you talking about? This is like a middle schooler's first economic theory.
What resources are so limited?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:18:02 UTC No. 16446015

>>16446011
>Growth just makes more resources available?
So far yes, of course theres a limit but we are not at that limit.
When the hard limits to growth are reached nothing special will happen, the economy will just not grow anymore. It will be like these european economies that dont grow anymore but still have good economies, stagnant, but at a high level

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:21:39 UTC No. 16446028

>>16446015
Very specifically, what resource could slow down growth?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:28:12 UTC No. 16446039

>>16446028
>what resource could slow down growth?
Pretty much none, the most critical is oil but it can be replaced with other energy sources.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:29:41 UTC No. 16446040

>>16446039
Oh I thought you were OP

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:45:28 UTC No. 16446060

>>16446007

> Overproduction doesnt really happen except as short term incidents.

This is an incredibly naive statement. Overproduction is one of the main ways that companies end up in debt. If you look at major form bankruptcy cases involving firms that actually produce products, demand not meeting supply causes major issues.

If you want an example in which overproduction has occured industrywide for decades now, look at automotive industry. Dealers take major losses, including regularly going out of business when they take in inventory that never gets sold at market rate. Significant percentages of the new car production from any particular model year end up sold at auction in bulk because branded dealerships don't have demand which meets supply, and these sort of losses are literally built into the contract relationships between manufacturers and dealerships (including, in some cases, minumum purchase requirements for cars manufacturers feel will struggle to sell so they can push the liability onto the dealership).

>>16446012
Being a capitalist doesn't mean you need to sign onto some Nicene creed where you doctrinally pretend negative externalities and resource limitations don't exist. All it means to believe in capitalism is believe that market price signals provide better regulation of goods than planning/forced economies.

Mixed market capitalism is in fact the dominant view within economists today (though I'm an engineer, not an economist).

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:50:23 UTC No. 16446071

>>16445895
Hmm I think your confusing American property rights vs capitalism as a political ideology.

The davos group wich are European intellectuals and are global capitalist. Are what I'm referring to. the global system of capitalism.

The energy transfer dimensions of globalism is to liberal and not conservative.

For example a cargo ship uses 12 tons of fuel per hour and cost 400k dollars to fill up.

Also the scale and production of Chinese manufacturing is too intensive on energy demand and resource availability.

All species on earth conserve energy it is not natural to liberalize energy consumption.

Are birds constantly flapping their wings? Or do they glide In the wind to conserve energy?

So now they want solar panels and windmills and batteries to keep the party
Going. They are trying to solve a problem they themselves created.

This is what I'm referring to as dumb. It was constructed in the 1970s and was doomed to fail.

The gold standard existed to balance trade in the foreign exchange markets.

Now the lack of a gold standard allows China And other countries to manipulate the currency to increase exports.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 17:51:06 UTC No. 16446073

>>16446028
NTA, but it depends quite a lot on the industry and sector.

One of the most common resource shortages that slow down growth are in human resources (i.e., not having competent workers to replace retiring/upwardly mobile workers currently occupying important positions within a firm). You can see this in medical markets now where the supply of doctors is far more restrictive than meeting the demand needs as our populations age.

This is a good thing if you are a doctor, as it keeps your salaries high and guarantees you will have job security. It sucks if you are a medical network that is constantly short staffed, having to overpay for both medical services and administrative staff, as well as operating on razor thin budgets.

If you think I'm bullshitting, look into the crisis of rural hospitals closing. Lack of resources in both liquid capital and human capital are the key issues they face.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:07:18 UTC No. 16446101

>>16445947
And every single one of them is not nearly as wealthy as even a no-name noble of the middle ages, let alone a Vizier or the Pharaoh himself. Mansa Musa's paltry charity was so great it virtually caused a genocide. The richest man alive today couldn't destabilize a third world shithole just by dumping his entire fortune into it.

Kings of old had chariots made out of exotic woods and gold. Today the rich buy factory-assembled shitboxes which are utterly disposable and made out of steel, cheap leathers and common hardwoods. Kings of old had their entire wardrobe made from the ground up, each garment lovingly crafted for their unique body. Today even "haute couture" houses don't do custom commissions, no matter the money put on offer.

The power of richness experienced in the past no longer exists, because the rich are far poorer than they used to be.
Peasants may have owned less than the lower and middle class today, but the things they owned were of a quality that is now only enjoyed by the absolute upper crust of society. For the rest of us, it's sloppily mass manufactured crap. The additional wealth is a hallucination, because it's not readily apparent just what we've actually lost.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:24:04 UTC No. 16446122

>>16446073
I more meant as a technology problem. IIRC the doctor shortage is caused by a union limiting residency to keep their salaries high. This hardly fits the premise of the OP

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:25:00 UTC No. 16446123

>>16445945
The Haber process which creates high yields for agriculture is the only way high density population are sustained.

This process is very energy intensive. And uses natural gas.

If you look at the un food security data people around the world are starting to starve.

The unfortunate reality is people will starve to death because of a fantasy idea I'm people's heads.

Economics needs to be more clearly defined instead of some ambiguous fairy tell story

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:29:14 UTC No. 16446128

>>16446123
Methane is easy to produce with electricity, air, and water. Hardly limited. Starvation is not a technology problem either. Mismanagement by a state does not make the case for OPs premise.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:34:03 UTC No. 16446137

>>16446071
>capitalism as a political ideology
The problem is that what I describe precisely is capitalism as a political ideology.
It's important to note that globalism is a form of neo-mercantilism, mercantilism itself arose out of the guilds and landlords colliding with an early version of liberalism.

John Locke and Adam Smith, the fathers of capitalism itself, represented a reaction to mercantilism, and a branching point of liberalism. To them they focus on combining this idea of naturalistic anti-classism with a social structure that didn't rely on autistic trade balance optimization.

It's tricky because American property rights are directly tied up with this branching point in liberalism, in much the same way that the American revolution is tied up in it as well. America is more or less a material manifestation of the enlightenment coming to bear against the old system of Kings and Nobles and Guild Masters. A man's pedigree would not be determined by who his father or mother was, but instead the actual, material context in which he existed in. In some ways, it is a revival of Aristotle's ideas that nobody is a slave (or lower class, or peasant) by nature.

It's important to note. A lot of our industrial activity driven by huge entropy wells which dwarf the maximum total capacity for organic life to accelerate the arrow of time. The shifting of plates, the fusion of the sun, etc. The relative scales must be considered here, as that cargo ship which uses hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fuel performs logistical work valued in hundreds of millions of dollars.

Globalism exploits that disparity along with the nature of inflation's delayed and unpredictable propagation to achieve neo-mercantilistic goals of micromanaging imports and exports. The true result of this is that it's not truly aiming or achieving any degree of material efficiency. They simply exploit inflation for illusionary profit.

You underline exactly why this system is doomed to fail.

raphael at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:49:58 UTC No. 16446162

>>16445355
whats the point of having public means of production? we'd need to recruit based on intelligence and then make stuff which would work in theory but people hate the idea of iq plus super natural power of selling your soul takes advantage of people psychologically

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 18:54:53 UTC No. 16446171

>>16446128
Are you dumb high or both?


If natural gas is so easy to created then why do countries import it from the US RUSSIA AND UAE.

They would just make it themselves with muh electricity... so simple guys.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:08:30 UTC No. 16446184

>>16446060
>. Overproduction is one of the main ways that companies end up in debt.
Debt is caused by taking in loans, so you must be mistaken
>>16446060
>Nicene creed where you doctrinally pretend negative externalities and resource limitations don't exist
These are the demons in your head i was talking about. Perhaps you might talk about economics some more, i have no interest in the schizophrenic facet of your mind

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:08:35 UTC No. 16446185

>>16446171
I didn't say it was cheaper than extraction, I said it was easy. The chemistry has been known for 150 years. As other sources of energy get cheaper and more abundant (this is already happening), then we'll make our own methane. I'm sorry it makes you so upset that innovation continues to solve scarcity

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:21:41 UTC No. 16446198

you are going to die, your life is not mathematically sound

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:21:52 UTC No. 16446199

>>16446185
>I didn't say it was cheaper then extraction.

Anon your techno-optimism is clouding your common

By your own admission extraction is cheaper.

So how is using more resources to achieve something a better solution?

Why pay more? Why do more? This isn't efficient or viable long term strategy and that type of thinking is exactly how we got into this mess

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:22:02 UTC No. 16446200

>>16445541
>Capitalism just boosts the rich. It's not really a system for us.
No, trickle down is real, in the form of comfort and convenience.

Talent, skill, cream, unites and rises to the top, recieves the most access to the most resources, improves, enhances, evolves, discovers, invents, produces, mass produces, physical and energetic novelties, which make life easier, more comfortable, more pleasant, more interesting and exciting and worthwhile for everyone below.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:23:42 UTC No. 16446201

>>16446198
You maybthink your being clever but this has nothing to do with the scope of the discussion

Garrote at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:29:23 UTC No. 16446206

Even normal things like trees can't grow perpetually. OP is right, even though physics doesn't speak of money conservation laws.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:31:28 UTC No. 16446208

>>16445639
If I have a business, I want the most possible people with the most possible money surrounding me. More people and more money, more people and more money! Because that give me more opportunity to recieve more money

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:32:23 UTC No. 16446211

>>16446201
Its exactly the same scope
You are saying that resources are finite hence... things will come to an end.
But it isnt even true for the economy, as material resources can be recycled forever and energy will last as long as the sun shines so the economy is more sound than human life (mathematically)

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:44:48 UTC No. 16446224

>>16445930
It offers freedom and social/economic mobility, what more can one want?

In the grand scheme of history, slavery was legal yesterday, and in places of the world still exists today.

A poor illiterate blue collar immigrants son can go to school and become a multi millionaire stock broker.

Planned obsolescence is necessary. If a car company produced 400 million cars that each were gurrenteed to last 300 years with little maintenence, the company would be putting itself out of business.

Those who owned the company might get enough profit to live for 300 years, but all the workers below and all that investment in factory infrastructure would be useless and worthless

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:47:53 UTC No. 16446230

>>16446199
>using more resources
This is not a problem if you produce more resources. Also, electricity is fundamentally scarce. We are making more and more of it and it is getting cheaper and cheaper. Why would using more electricity matter if it costs less money? We're talking about the markets, not entropy

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 19:51:39 UTC No. 16446236

>>16446211
>material resources can be recycled.

Goes straight to landfill after done.

> Energy will last as long as the sun shines

Cites 1979s oil crisis in the US predicted by hubbarts peak.

You think your smart but you haven't read history or anything.

Where do you get such confidence? Oh that's right the dunning Kruger effect.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:00:45 UTC No. 16446255

>>16446230
How do you make electricity anon?

Have you studied thermodynamics?

Electricity is energy. Electricity is created through mechanical work. Work is created by energy.

There is not unlimited anything nothing is free. You get in what you put out.

Hydrocarbons are extremely energy dense. We cannot create this in a lab. It takes hundreds of millions of years.

You cannot replace Hydrocarbons with batteries. And solar panels.

In fact Electricity only accounts for 20% of energy consumption.

The numbers don't add up anon

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:03:50 UTC No. 16446262

>>16446101
One of the most valuable aspects of wealth is time, as in time is money. Free-time or freedom.
Then to mention, what can be accessed with money in time. Is there no difference between eating dinner in a 5 star restaurant naked while being massaged by 10 naked super models while a troupe of dancers entertain you, and a can of beans over a garbage barrell fire

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:09:08 UTC No. 16446276

>>16446255
>You cannot replace Hydrocarbons with batteries. And solar panels.
You can. It is a cost function. Solar is getting absurdly cheap, the US is deploying like 2 acres per minute. This solar can be used to make hydrocarbons and heat. The only numbers you need to concern yourself with are watts and cost. Watts are going up and cost is coming down.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:14:28 UTC No. 16446284

>>16446276
Do you understand energy density?

Do you understand what electricity accounts for 20% of energy consumption means?

Or do you like preaching your techno-optimism religion at people.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:16:15 UTC No. 16446287

>>16446262
Are you over 18?

T nis is a 14 years old fantasy.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:20:33 UTC No. 16446291

>>16446284
Wait a minute, are you cult of passion? Have I been arguing with a midwit schizo this whole time? Fuck

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:23:40 UTC No. 16446295

>>16445227
Like it or not, socialism is the future. When AGI (AI that thinks on a human level and lets be honest, a lot better too) becomes a real thing, it's going to put the vast majority out of work. Of course, this isn't for another 100-200 years so none of us will care.

You'll collect your government check and live miserably and die. The wealth gap will be extreme.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:26:34 UTC No. 16446299

>>16446291
No but it's good we both think he is a schizo.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:38:01 UTC No. 16446316

>>16446299
Oh alright. Well anyway >>16446284 I do understand energy density, I'm not optimistic about batteries for everything. Solar can be stored in batteries for grid power, but as hydrocarbons for the applications that currently use hydrocarbons. Solar is also quite good at producing heat. Solar aside, recent talk is the nuclear regulatory commission's days are numbered.
I'm talking about a 10x increase of global electricity production to be used for all current energy usage. All hydrocarbons, all industrial heating, and of course the 20% used as electricity. There is no physics, economic, or technology reason this won't happen.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:42:19 UTC No. 16446323

>>16445122
You typed a lot and didn't say anything

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:44:22 UTC No. 16446325

>>16446184

> Debt is caused by taking in loans, so you must be mistaken.

Okay, you are almost there. You're so close. When a business goes to produce something that's expensive or needs to purchase goods to sell that are expensive, where does that money come from? Do you think it's generally paid for with cash on hand, or do you think it exists generally as credit?

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:52:36 UTC No. 16446344

>>16446122
As a technology problem, there are some resource limitations but they generally exist on rates rather than raw numbers.

For example, if you are trying to produce custom chipsets for some integrated controller, you aren't going to generally be short of literal numbers of wafers in the sense that if you can wait, you can buy as much as you want. You will need to wait.

The issue is the rate of delivery in units per quarter, not in number of units themselves. This happens all the time in materials manufacturing, as well as in medical services. It's never an "if" kind of shortage, it's a "when" kind of shortage.

I don't think, for example, we're running out of oil or copper or uranium any time soon. Maybe in thousands of years if things grow exponentially from here.

What may cause problems is the "rate" problem. As soon as it's too slow or expensive to be profitable, the same sorts of shortage problems happen as if there's a literal resource issue, but it's always a "when" not an if.

Stop guessing start learning at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:52:45 UTC No. 16446345

>>16446325
Anon ill step In to give proper defining linguistic parameters.

Debt is future claim on money legally enforced by the government.

Well I should say enforceable, because it up to the creditor how they want their money back

But the future Is uncertain and that's the flaw

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 20:54:11 UTC No. 16446348

>>16446325
kill yourself nigger

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 21:32:47 UTC No. 16446392

>>16446344
For something necessary you could just build a second machine, right? If the rate is determined by throughput and not resources then it's an easy enough problem to solve. The rest is price discovery, which the market does fairly well. There are some things I'm aware of like those giant glass furnaces that take a couple years to turn on and off, but that hardly makes OPs point about capital efficiency

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 21:34:17 UTC No. 16446393

>>16446325
These guys are mad because they don't know. In a system where the money continues to lose value year after year, taking out loans is the only way to operate competitively

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 21:47:21 UTC No. 16446403

Average net capital returns in the economy are around 10%, net, capital produces more but added value must be shared with workers and the government.
Any loans you can get at less that 10% APR are free money. But not really as free money isnt real, someone pays for that and that someone are all the people that give money to banks hold it for them and get nearly 0% interest. They make free money possible.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 21:48:39 UTC No. 16446405

>>16446392
Well, the point is that the bottleneck is almost always not money or literal material. It's never as simple as "build a second machine" because all of the processes that go into building the second machine tend to have constraints that are not as easily/cheaply paid for.

If your operation needs cobalt, you can spend money to buy it, but if you need it faster or in larger quantity, you need to literally find a mining company to finance, which will take months and tons of human expertise beyond just the buying and selling.

If you need more widgets, that might literally mean needing to spend years training more engineers to build machines to make widgets.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 22:13:03 UTC No. 16446427

>>16445122
The Simon–Ehrlich wager debunked this. In the long term, this is not a problem.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 22:17:51 UTC No. 16446435

>>16446284
>>16446299
>>16446345
>OP posts Trump memes
>OP also posts anti-Semitic memes
>Trump is the most pro-Israel POTUS in history
>Bibi is the most pro-Trump PMOI in Israeli history
OP is clearly a deluded retard and this thread is fucking balls. As it is, posters have attempted to explain to him his shit theory linking energy to capitalism is garbage many times, and he just ignores them.

Anyone posting after this point is a faggot.

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 22:18:05 UTC No. 16446437

Capitalism doesnt need growth to be sustainable, it can work with zero growth and even in a shrinking economy

Anonymous at Wed, 23 Oct 2024 23:48:24 UTC No. 16446522

>>16446236
This graph also explains why humanity is double-fucked: Because the top trait women are attracted to is confidence.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:09:01 UTC No. 16446541

>>16446403
>Any loans you can get at less that 10% APR are free money
>Average net capital returns in the economy are around 10%

So you're saying there are quite sure investments, and you can take out loans and make them? Like S and P or something or what

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:12:18 UTC No. 16446545

>>16446403
What if every single person in the country took out a loan at the same time and invested all of it in the S and P?

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:17:43 UTC No. 16446550

>>16446435

So we don't use energy to drive a car?
Machines in factories don't use energy?
Planes don't use energy?
Semi-trucks dont use energy?
Computers don't use energy?

You think this shit is I unlimited and is just plentiful?

Oh it just works huh?

Smh

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:29:30 UTC No. 16446560

>>16446541
It's not free money have you heard of compounding interest shit brain?

10% a year on 1000p dollars

Say your loan is 5 years or three years

That's 3-5 thousand dollars you have to pay in interest.

Holy shit are people really this uninformed no wonder we are in so much debt.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:31:07 UTC No. 16446562

>>16445484
Land ownership is the leading cause of poverty, if people could live on and farm unused land they could live well without any income.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:40:04 UTC No. 16446579

>>16445122
I think it's bizarre how liberals are so adamant on saying they're on the side of science and against disinformation EXCEPT when it comes to economics. In this case, they'll believe any bullshit argument.

First, capitalism, as a concept, says nothing about growth. It's about property rights and organization. It doesn't require any specific growth pattern to exist.

Second, growth is a concern to us because people live better when they have more resources available. And while you may argue people only need enough resources to meet their needs, the needs of humans are limitless, so they'll always want as much as possible as a society. And even then, the baseline of human history has been insufficient resources for satisfying our basic needs. People would care about having more resources regardless of the economic system in place.

Third, if you ever opened a book on modern growth theory you'd notice the main driver of growth in modern societies is efficiency. Solow model shows you can only grow so much by accumulating resources alone. For sustained/perpetual growth you'd need to be constantly increasing the efficiency of the use of those resources. That's why it's often said the driver of modern growth is technology. It allows us to produce much more without needing that many more resources. If could argue there's a limit to innovation, that at some point we won't be able to create new tech to produce stuff more efficiently, but we're clearly not there yet. And even if there was a limit to how efficiently can we use the resources on earth, there's not really a reason to not go for the maximum efficiency.

And let's not forget the size of this universe. It's not been even a millennium since the industrial revolution and we're already talking about colonizing other planets. Resources shouldn't be a concern in the far future.

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:40:22 UTC No. 16446581

>>16446562
I agree why rely off other people to provide you.with goods and services?

People aren't reliable. What if the system can't provide and I have no skills.

I am fucked.

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:48:59 UTC No. 16446590

>>16446579
Bahahahaha more techno-optimism and delusions of grandure?

Dude it's not me saying this shit brain.

The Saudis aramco, BP, ExxonMobil, the eia models publications all show oil peaking within 25 years anon.

Larry fink ceo of Blackrock states we don't even have 10 years when speaking with Bill gates on Bloomberg.

Oil experts have claimed on Bloomberg that peak permian by 2025 this is west Texas crude.

We are fucked anon. No matter how you look at it.

The capitalist system was always doomed to fail. If it does not conserve.

I am not liberal either shit brain

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:54:06 UTC No. 16446594

>>16446590
We're actually at better odds at dealing with it than if we were in a non-market system, though. As oil becomes more scarce and harder to find, it also becomes more expensive. This regulates its usage AND give incentives to search for alternative means, which is something that is already happening btw.

If there was some central authority instrad of the market, then managing all this shit would be nearly impossible and we'd be with a real risk of things going really bad.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 01:05:00 UTC No. 16446601

What's the difference between a thug and a capitalist?
About $200 Grand!! :)),
Wisdom, Understanding, and a Plan.

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 01:06:18 UTC No. 16446603

>>16446594
Anon. We rely off the Chinese to ship goods to the coast of California.

These ships use 12 tons of fuel per hour.i don't think you understand how many goods come on these ships per day.

Our economy would implode.

More techno optimistic bs.

Alright guys come on. Grab snacks and popcorn and sit back and watch the future unfold.

Someone will figure it out Das right. Trust me bro.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 01:22:19 UTC No. 16446620

>>16446603
Let's assume just for the sake of the argument that we won't find other means to fuel these ships by the time all oil ends. What would we expect to happen?
Will people just ignore all info about oil reserves and keep doing what they have always been doing? Likely not. As it becomes more evident that oil reserves won't make it, you'd expect oil to become increasingly expensive. The thing about the price system is that it reflects all that information.
As price increases, less people are going to use oil for menial tasks and will try to find alternatives. As goods and services that requires oil becomes increasingly prohibitive in terms of price, people will try to switch to now less expensive goods and services. If there's no new technology, we'd switch to other less efficient means. This would lead to sizeable welfare loss and would suck, but it wouldn't be an overnight collapse as some may being picturing. And the reason is simple: reaching the limits of key resources like oil do not happen overnight. It happens slowly, so the market can react to that.
By reacting to that I don't mean there won't be any welfare loss, it's just that the system adapts to it. It's kinda like if you were a millionaire but you went through a divorce. You lost 50% of everything you own and has to pay a crazy alimony. Your standard of living will take a hit for sure, and it'll take time to put your shit together, but it's not a systemic collapse.

And again, any system would have the same issue. It's not a capitalism thing.

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 01:32:06 UTC No. 16446638

>>16446620
Anon we use oil In everything. Plastics medicine, manufacturing concrete. Agriculture. Semi trucks.. planes. Electricity uses natural gas.

Everything in your room touches oil.

You are correct an overnight implosion probably won't happen. That's not how systems work.

But If you look at any curve plotted on the X y axis it goes into peak and decline. All systems peak and decline due to entropy

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 01:38:17 UTC No. 16446642

>>16446638
So what's the problem here? Yea, if you have a non renewable resource that can't be replaced by any means without losing efficiency, then yea, there will be welfare loss and things will decline. Sure.
But keep in mind that there are some strong assumptions here.

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 01:47:32 UTC No. 16446651

>>16446642
Because even a 3% decline in energy would be disastrous for the economy. Something called debt deflation

Have you noticed energy prices are cheaper. Gas is cheaper at the pumps?

That's because China collapsed and going through debt deflation.

Hold on to tour bootstraps. If you studied economics like I have you would fear the mighty debt deflation.

Irwin fisher thought to be the greatest economist of all time. Stated that's what caused the great depression.

What a fun ride the future will bring or the near future hehe

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:07:58 UTC No. 16446673

>>16446560
What would happen here
>>16446545

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:14:56 UTC No. 16446682

>>16446594
>>16446590
If no oil at all existed on earth right now, in theory and practice humans would be able to live just fine, as they did all those years before oil, only difference between all those years ago without oil is we would have so much more tech and capabilities now

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:16:52 UTC No. 16446684

>>16446673
NTA, but whoever is lending the money for these people to invest probably would soon realize they're better off by cutting the middle man and invest directly. That or they just raise the interest rate for their loans.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:18:31 UTC No. 16446685

>>16446651
>Have you noticed energy prices are cheaper. Gas is cheaper at the pumps?
Every car is electric, then what

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:24:33 UTC No. 16446692

>>16446684
How would it effect the stock market and economy?

There are like 300,000,000 in america I know it's more but let's neglect some children.

Each right now, takes out $20,000 loan.

20,000 x 300,000,000 = 6,000,000,000,000

All invested in the S and P right now, what happens?

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:26:59 UTC No. 16446694

>>16446316
>thread autist didn't even touch this post
My contrarian nature compels me to believe this guy

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:29:02 UTC No. 16446698

>>16446692
I'll just assume the banks are taking a % of these people's income to invest, which is something they do on daily basis anyway. What you have is an increase in money supply. If things keep going on, inflation catches up and people start to realize your currency is shit.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:31:16 UTC No. 16446701

>>16446698
>I'll just assume the banks are taking a % of these people's income to invest, which is something they do on daily basis anyway. What you have is an increase in money supply. If things keep going on, inflation catches up and people start to realize your currency is shit.
What is the physical tangible result of investing in the S and P?

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:33:02 UTC No. 16446703

>>16446701
You could likely expect a short term economic boom until it crashes.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:40:53 UTC No. 16446710

>>16446703
Is stocks anything other than ponzi scheme?

The only reason stocks are of any value, is because a habit has been developed, that if everyone buys stocks and waits, new and new people are born, and told to buy stocks and wait, and so after long waiting, you sell it to new people?

The public finances comapnies, and in return, hopes the next generation buys their ticket of proof of old finance

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:48:45 UTC No. 16446713

>>16446579
The modern conflation of Liberalism with leftism is a tragedy.
Otherwise I agree 100%. The fixed pie fallacy is the worst and most prevalent in all of economics.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:59:23 UTC No. 16446722

>>16446710
I don't quite agree with that. If you told me it was creating a huge debt to build houses, it would also lead to what I said. That's just macro 101. The problem isn't investing in the s&p, it's printing money.
The financial markets are important for allowing intertemporal transfers, and this is important even if you add a no ponzi game condition...

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:30:00 UTC No. 16446746

>>16446722
Most normal, average, and above average citizens are conditioned to place x amount of their money in retirement funds, or invest: then there is y amount of people's invest in stocks. Then there are z people, the people that are given aforementioned most normal, average, above average citizens money to make the gureenteed profitable investments with it.

Buying a stock is giving a company money.

The only way you benefit from your purchase.
Is if someone purchases your purchase.
The only reason someone would purchase your purchase, is if they believe someone will purchase their purchase, for more than they purchased it for.

You mentioned in my most extreme example earlier, the badness due to the inflation, or debt, (which again would only be worthwhile for everyone if they believed there would be some return on investment),
But a lot of investment and loans already operate via that manner, so what you are saying is the system can bare q amount of people doing that, but not everyone.

There was the mention of boom bust cycle, related. What if at the apex of the boom, the percentage who most profited off this magic trick, literally with fire burned off the top the amount of their cash, to avoid the bust, and then rinse and repeat?

The oddities of the stock market, it's playing to every peasants dream of lotto, making money by doing nothing, I'd likely a large reason for the new stock market of crypto currency, which otherwise of some utility here and there, will you at least admit there is pure ponzi scheme? Pure pet rocks and beanie babies.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:31:41 UTC No. 16446747

>>16446746
>The only way you benefit from your purchase.
>Is if someone purchases your purchase.
>The only reason someone would purchase your purchase, is if they believe someone will purchase their purchase, for more than they purchased it for.
And inflation is the only way to insure the prices keep rising, to inspire and make it tempting and worth while to give companies your money in exchange for a piece of paper

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:37:29 UTC No. 16446750

>>16446651
As incomprehensibly glorious the things oil has done for man the past 300 years, it also probably has its Ying yang, it increased productivity, it increased speed, oil is civilization on meth. A most impatient slave master, who cracks the whip, every pico second is acounted for, you are paid by the nano second, I am paying for your nano seconds, you must exert all your energy per nano second for me so long as you are on the clock. Crack Crack of the whip, hurry hurry, before it runs out, more more faster faster more more faster faster

🗑️ Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:40:36 UTC No. 16446754

>>16446746
Beliefs are a big part of stock prices indeed, but it's not 100%. At the end of the day you have people wanting to invest and people wanting to save. Allowing them to make a deal is not the problem.
As for actual question, the key here is the mechanism, which was using debt to buy stocks. The effects isn't related to one or feel. It could be macroeconomic effects regardless if it was one guy borrowing and spending a lot (e.g. govt) or everyone doing it a little. And while it happens, it does have effects such as inflation. Not because of people bought stocks, though, but because people financed it with debt.

🗑️ Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:41:38 UTC No. 16446756

>>16446754
>few
Fixed.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:43:24 UTC No. 16446758

>>16446746
Beliefs are a big part of stock prices indeed, but it's not 100%. At the end of the day you have people wanting to invest and people wanting to save. Allowing them to make a deal is not the problem.
As for actual question, the key here is the mechanism, which was using debt to buy stocks. The effects isn't related to one or many. There would be macroeconomic effects regardless if it was one guy borrowing and spending a lot (e.g. govt) or everyone doing it a little. And while it happens, it does have effects such as inflation. Not because of people bought stocks, though, but because people financed it with debt.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 04:16:02 UTC No. 16446771

>>16446746
In this sense, this form of captialism, is socialism via meritocracy, everyone knows what is industrious, nessecary and profitable (obviousnesses of economy centrally plan themselves).

A small local bank is only 4 walls. The citizens surrounding the bank, place their money in the walls, when a bank loans money for businesses to start or continue in that locality, kind of the opposite of socialism I geuss, it is the communities pot of money that is taken, given to a member of the community, some of the community benefits symbiotically if they keep the business in business

And to show the community appreciation for fronting the business money, they pay the 4 walls interest.
Like 20 years or something some of that interest would have been split into all depositors accounts like a penny a month or something, but Okay now I see,

The workers of the bank are curators of the community, custodians of the people money and the towns face of businesses, and now I understand and admit that role of the business loan judger, as with everyone at work, there needs to be someone at the 4 walls, not just giving the communities money out on loan for every wacky claim for a business there can be. Okay I see that now.

Pizza shop, mechanic, ice cream, shoe store, hardware store, clothes store, barber shop, bar,
Good idea good idea good idea

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 04:21:30 UTC No. 16446774

>>16445357
>Well I think the seed of the notion of growth begins with the notion of, being fruitful and multiplying, population growth for starters:
In this sense, the foundation of the economics of a Civilization is Love

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 04:42:24 UTC No. 16446780

>>16445122
Lots of words to restate the, “infinite growth on a finite planet” argument.
Which is asinine.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 05:11:54 UTC No. 16446808

>>16446774
When people trade, what they're actually looking for is a friend.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 07:37:17 UTC No. 16446888

>>16446771
Now I see, some people deposit $40,000 in the bank every month
Some people deposit $15 in the bank every month.

The community of money that society is, the community that is the bank, that is commerce, cannot reward these two citizens equally

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 07:39:05 UTC No. 16446890

>>16446888
>Now I see, some people deposit $40,000 in the bank every month
>Some people deposit $15 in the bank every month.
What if the former is a rapist Crack dealer scam artist and the latter is a girl scout?

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 10:46:37 UTC No. 16447008

>>16446541
>So you're saying there are quite sure investments, and you can take out loans and make them?
All investments are safe on average, but investing has "fluctuations" which average out. So individuals might simply have bad luck with one specific investment, if you had like 30 or 40 investment projects then some of them will fail for sure but on average they will produce around 10% returns.
I mean, they produce more wealth than 10%, its like 30%, but roughly you give a third to the workers and a third to the government.
This is only if these are investments you run. If you are just a partner in some investment thats already proven and running, you get less, like 6%. Typically what you get when you buy shares of some corporation, management and early investors pocket that extra 4%, thats how they become billionaires, they make 4% of everyone elses investment cash.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 10:50:07 UTC No. 16447015

>>16446545
>What if every single person in the country took out a loan at the same time and invested all of it in the S and P?
Everybody is taking out loans all the time, i dont see what you think is so special. Car loans, mortgages, credit card. And how much would these new loans be, a dollar?

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 10:52:57 UTC No. 16447019

>>16446560
>It's not free money have you heard of compounding interest shit brain?
Its free because you get more in profits.
10% is the limit, you can make 10% profit and pay 10% interest, but thats silly, you break even at free. But if you get loans at any less than 10%, say 9.9% APR, they you profit from free money.
Who pays for that? Those who deposit money in banks. Their money earns no interest for them, but when it gets invested you and the bank share on the profit.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 10:55:25 UTC No. 16447021

>>16446590
>Switch economy to solar power
>4 billion year bonanza
>sun dies out? Capitalism has failed

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 13:08:53 UTC No. 16447123

>>16446590
>switch to communism
>oil reserves refill
You're retarded. This has nothing to do with the market

Stop guessing start learning at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 14:42:25 UTC No. 16447206

>>16447123
Switch to communism? When have I mentioned communism once in this thread?

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 19:44:13 UTC No. 16447756

>>16447206
You failed to parse his intent.

If you switched to communism.
The oil reserves would not refill.

Anonymous at Thu, 24 Oct 2024 23:07:50 UTC No. 16447971

>>16447206
>>16447756
>>16447123
Oh but at the same time he is wrong because in your post you say captialism is doomed to fail If it doesn't conserve

Anonymous at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 08:18:58 UTC No. 16448601

>>16445271
building a city on the falkland islands?

Anonymous at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 14:46:49 UTC No. 16449027

>>16447206
>When have I mentioned communism once in this thread?
In every post you ever wrote. Its just implied. You should be arrested and thrown into a blacksite forever.

Anonymous at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 14:49:57 UTC No. 16449030

>>16445122
>The asymmetry is tied to the growth parameter a
Capitalism doesnt have anything called a growth parameter. You have just made this up

Stop guessing start learning at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:27:50 UTC No. 16449073

>>16449027
Lmao I never implied anythings related to communism.

By the way Mr know it all

Communism is defined as state capitalism. The state controls the means of production.

Our economy is fascism. Which the state has implicit control over the means of production. Or in secret

For example tesla getting a 400 million dollar loan from the department of energy under the Obama administration.

You dont know jack shit. You just like to act like you know shit.

Anonymous at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:35:13 UTC No. 16449083

>>16449073
why does sci attract so many schizos

Stop guessing start learning at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 15:41:05 UTC No. 16449091

>>16449083
Schizo I read sir. Schizos listen to propaganda and believe tv or YouTube man

Anonymous at Fri, 25 Oct 2024 16:55:27 UTC No. 16449168

>>16449073
>how do you do fellow capitalists

Anonymous at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 17:11:22 UTC No. 16450949

>>16445122
stop posting cringe. there is no point in thinking of things as finite because the amount to draw in is so large that locally it appears to operate as if its infinite.
as an anlogy, start taking cups of water out of the ocean. see how frivilous and pointless it is to wonder about the time you will have moved the ocean into another place? its not functionally useful to think of the ecvonomy like this. its a truism which has no utility to a business. retard.

Stop guessing start learning at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 17:51:59 UTC No. 16451006

>>16450949
Can you drink water out the ocean? No. Stop being dumb.

Anonymous at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 18:13:50 UTC No. 16451038

>>16451006
Fish do

Anonymous at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 19:51:49 UTC No. 16451133

>>16445122
Growth is not just about resources or population. Technology is the real driving force behind growth. And I don’t think the explosion in population over the last 200 years is really the fault of capitalism, just animals wanting to reproduce to carrying capacity. Besides, capitalism need not necessarily grow, only maintain. Look at Japan for the past 30 years.
Not that capitalism doesn’t have other, very serious problems that will eventually lead to its replacement.

Anyways, life itself is no different. We require a constant input of energy to live. From the day you were born, your time was limited. The same is true of everyone who ever was or ever will be. One day the last living being will die, no matter what you do. Even particles may decay into nothing. It’s just the nature of things that existence is transient.

Anonymous at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 20:00:51 UTC No. 16451142

>>16450949
Plenty of cases where it is beneficial to think this way. For example, wood from old growth trees isn’t readily available anymore. Harder, denser, larger slabs of wood that are in most cases better than the stuff you can get now.
We’ve largely adapted with modern glues and woodworking techniques, but it’s not always that easy.
Second example, your average Uranium ore has about 0.1% Uranium. The stuff they used in the Manhattan project was 65% Uranium.

Anyways, it’s a valid point that the extraction of resources is not linear. The low hanging fruits come easy, and everything after that gets harder and harder.

Stop guessing start learning at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 20:24:51 UTC No. 16451161

>>16451142
This.

It's just not sustainable for 8 billion people long term.

Anonymous at Sat, 26 Oct 2024 20:46:03 UTC No. 16451191

>>16451133
You are oversimplifying facts. Things may die, doesn't mean things should die right now. That goes against the self-preservation mechanism that allows for life in the first place.

>just animals wanting to reproduce to carrying capacity
Except that we're not "just" animals. We are the next step in the organization level, we are the sensory and reactive parts of the biosphere, the biosphere itself is an organism, and right now we are behaving like a parasite instead of like a muscle. Carrying capacity is dynamic and parasites passing the unsustainable threshold leading to the organism death is possible.

The world will die with people around. Things could have been different.

Stop guessing start learning at Mon, 28 Oct 2024 04:07:18 UTC No. 16453183

>>16451191
The world will not die stop with the overdramatization. People will die the earth will live on

Anonymous at Mon, 28 Oct 2024 06:22:46 UTC No. 16453267

>>16451191
>doesn't mean things should die right now.
>Capitalism is when you die right now

raphael at Mon, 28 Oct 2024 08:23:05 UTC No. 16453338

>>16446162
i thought so

raphael at Mon, 28 Oct 2024 08:24:25 UTC No. 16453339

>>16446698
banks trade your money with models while its fractionally reserved to beat inflation and pay you .1% for having an account with them plus they give out loans to other people

>axiom memer

Anonymous at Wed, 30 Oct 2024 07:55:47 UTC No. 16455677

>>16446684
>NTA, but whoever is lending the money for these people to invest probably would soon realize they're better off by cutting the middle man and invest directly.
Just doesnt happen, people put the money in the bank, get 0.1% while the bank invests or loans it at a high interest.

bodhi at Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:28:23 UTC No. 16455732

>>16445244
https://esotericawakening.com/who-invented-the-term-capitalism-and-why

Anonymous at Wed, 30 Oct 2024 10:30:40 UTC No. 16455735

>>16445122
>How can something grow perpetually?
Capitalism was never supposed to be sustainable in the foreseeable future. Economists at that time would have never imagined that one could push capitalism to that extent. It was just a way to stimulate industry and technological progress.

>This violates thermodynamics
How is thermodynamic related exactly ?

>The means of production like factories will eventually be unable to meet demand.
Then the market would just vanish. Again, capitalism has no assumptions on how to maintain the production.

>Like hmm gee guys these resources are finite. Why can't they be conserved?
The more we consume resources, the more we create scarcity which in turn increases demand up until we can't satisfy that demand anymore.

bodhi at Wed, 30 Oct 2024 11:01:27 UTC No. 16455743

>>16449073
I met this lil nigga when I smoked some dmt

bodhi at Wed, 30 Oct 2024 11:03:09 UTC No. 16455746

>>16449083
he is correct, you just arent very smart

Anonymous at Wed, 30 Oct 2024 11:12:32 UTC No. 16455751

>>16455746
>When Lenin and Trotsky seized power for themselves in November 1917, Schiff immediately rejected them, cut off further loans, started funding anti-Bolshevist groups, and even demanded that the Bolsheviks pay back some of the money he'd loaned Kerensky. Schiff also joined a British-backed effort to appeal to fellow Jews in Russia to continue the fight against Germany."[15]

Anonymous at Thu, 31 Oct 2024 17:52:16 UTC No. 16457229

>>16445122
you're gay and a communist

Anonymous at Fri, 1 Nov 2024 23:09:13 UTC No. 16458994

>>16445639
Virtually all professional economists are doctoral level and the foundations of modern thought are based on control theory, turns out politicians aren't willing to let them let the models made decisions, your dynamical systems theory is ill-equipped to actually model markets

Anonymous at Fri, 1 Nov 2024 23:18:50 UTC No. 16459005

>>16458994
>Virtually all professional economists are doctoral level and the foundations of modern thought are based on control theory,
>The economy is le machine with levers, things are bad because they dont let me pull le clever combination of levers

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 00:54:28 UTC No. 16459118

unlimited growth is synonymous with cancer.

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 01:31:03 UTC No. 16459139

>>16459118
its not unlimited and not all growth is cancer. Cancer is unregulated growth of biological tissues, it has nothing to do with an expansion of economic activity.

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 01:45:16 UTC No. 16459162

>>16459139
so where are the limits?

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 01:50:09 UTC No. 16459166

>>16459162
In your ass.
The growth ends when your ass explodes.

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 02:11:32 UTC No. 16459181

>>16459166
terrible feeling when you try to stick to your world perception but cant find a excuse reply, I know.
advantageously, you are narrow-minded and stubborn, so it works simply by ignoring it.

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 02:20:16 UTC No. 16459190

>>16459181
Cry more faggot

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 06:13:55 UTC No. 16459329

>>16445248
Prophet marx (pbuh) said so
The end is neigh

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 06:20:28 UTC No. 16459331

>>16446060
>dominant view within economists
Dominant view in economist is whatever they get paid for.
These people will get fired fast if they start spouting dangerous thoughts like freedoms and equality

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 06:22:38 UTC No. 16459336

>>16446236
>if material can be recycled how come there's landfill
Peak dunning cruger retard itt

🗑️ Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 06:25:02 UTC No. 16459337

>Economy thread?

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 06:27:16 UTC No. 16459340

>>16446590
>oil peaking within 25 years anon.
And gasoline consumption peaked in 2019
No collapse.

🗑️ Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 06:32:29 UTC No. 16459348

>>16446590
Fracking is onpy getting started. It will get used globally now, in saudi, Russia after the war is over (doesnt matter who wins), Mexico. Just as it doubled US output it will also do the same for all global producers

Stop guessing start learning at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 07:20:59 UTC No. 16459388

>>16459340
Covid 19?

Try again retard

Plus according to your chart you are furthering my point since the 1970s energy consumption has only increased

This isn't sustainable and will soon meet entropy.

Anonymous at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 07:25:47 UTC No. 16459394

>>16459388
Covid 19 was half a decade ago retard

Stop guessing start learning at Sat, 2 Nov 2024 08:49:34 UTC No. 16459446

>>16459394
Yawn...