Anonymous at Sat, 16 Nov 2024 15:49:20 UTC No. 16477880

>>16477871
sorry, cucks. quantum won't save you either:

"probabilistic" isn't a third option between caused/uncaused:

if probabilities determine the odds = that's still causation
if nothing determines the actual outcome = that's random
you can't be "partially caused" - either something caused it or not

the law of the excluded middle applies.

even quantum events must either:

have causes (including probabilistic ones)
not have causes

just like numbers MUST be even or odd, events MUST be either caused or not. "probabilistic" is just a type of causation, not a third category.

cope

Anonymous at Sat, 16 Nov 2024 15:51:06 UTC No. 16477883

>>16477871
>sci/philosophy cuck
Who are you talking to? Science and philosophy are basically the opposite of each other

Anonymous at Sat, 16 Nov 2024 16:28:41 UTC No. 16477911

Wait til you hear that group of sci trolls say their theory that nothing is something and it spontaneously appeared without cause of the spontaneity.

For the most part, I agree with OP, as long as it doesn't mean life is completely caged and there's no self input.

Anonymous at Sat, 16 Nov 2024 18:18:22 UTC No. 16478017

>>16477871
How does determinism live with random in the first place?

Stop guessing start learning at Sat, 16 Nov 2024 18:31:14 UTC No. 16478034

>>16477871
Why are sci fag's so obsessed with free will arguments? Why does religous philosophy live rent free in the heads of determinist?

Also there is not such thing as random just hidden variables that cannot be seen through observation.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 06:05:28 UTC No. 16480248

>>16477871
>that's it. just like a number must be even or odd.
>there's no third option - "free will" isn't even a coherent possibility.
0 isn't even or odd, i isn't even or odd, fractions don't have to be even even or odd, irrantional numbers aren't even or odd, transcendental numbers aren't even or odd, aleph numbers aren't even or odd....

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 09:45:22 UTC No. 16480385

>>16477871
If I've got no choice anyway, then I'll just choose to be the best possible version of myself.

Who gives a shit, it doesn't matter anyway

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 09:47:46 UTC No. 16480387

Coping, seething, dialating

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:31:40 UTC No. 16480415

>>16480387
Free will doesn't mean that, free will means free to control ones own will. Determinism and free will are together, which most people don't understand.

Our chemistry determines our mode, and we operate bodies like gestalts, but this doesn't mean I don't have choice within the constraints. I can lean towards a certain behaviour, and nothing would restrict me from doing that. I make choices all the time, it's just highly unlikely I'll choose discomfort.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:39:07 UTC No. 16480424

>>16480415
The determinism that academic stupids of today argue for is like a straight line. They argue that all decisions are based on chemistry and there's no 'you-in-the-mix' - they argue no control. Well I see this straight line as becoming jagged due to jolting from someone in control. We're not tranquil beings, there's a lot of wrath and competitiveness in us.

>>16480415

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:40:10 UTC No. 16480426

>>16480415
>free will means free to control ones own will.
Which you can't do because you will always be exactly you no matter how much will you have to be otherwise, no amount of control over yourself can make you not you and most of yourself is outside of your control anyway, you can't will yourself to have 10 hands in situations where it would be convenience, you are stuck with what you are.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:41:16 UTC No. 16480429

>>16480426
Will isn't action, it's essence of future action. My will IS free, I can lean towards whatever behaviour is possible.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:43:26 UTC No. 16480432

>>16480429
So then it isn't actual control, its just wishful thinking for control? You have free will if you want to be a woman despite the fact that you never actually will be one?

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:44:50 UTC No. 16480433

>>16480432
Yes, because no-ones arguing for a ultimate 'free' like you suggest. We accept being free ''within a system'' that also restricts us.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:47:44 UTC No. 16480434

>>16480433
>We accept being free ''within a system'' that also restricts us.
Ok Orwell, freedom is limitation, war is peace, pain is pleasure, yada yada yada.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 10:56:36 UTC No. 16480441

>>16480434
You're talking smack you tranny, you speak of ultimate things, such as an ultimate kind of control. Is a controller for a video game 'ultimate' - 'does it give you control?' - fuck me faggit you need to kys now.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:07:23 UTC No. 16480452

>>16480434
Fag

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:08:46 UTC No. 16480455

>>16480441
You don't have free will in a video game, you can't fire up super mario on the NES and play it like zelda, you are forced to play under the restricted guidelines of the character in the game you put in the console.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:10:15 UTC No. 16480457

>>16477871
>caused
It's caused by free will, in realtime

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:10:25 UTC No. 16480458

>>16480433
No one? When will compatibilists stop being dishonest lying cunts?

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:10:49 UTC No. 16480459

>>16480455
Retarded nonsense.

No-ones arguing for ultimate freedom or ultimate control.

You're too weak to argue with. I'm out.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:20:53 UTC No. 16480470

>>16480459
>No-ones arguing for ultimate freedom or ultimate control.
Concession accepted, you have limited will at best, obviously it isn't free for someone who is only free enough to be you and have your retarded limitations in thought and action.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:26:27 UTC No. 16480477

>>16480470
You have a donkeys mind.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:38:20 UTC No. 16480490

>>16480470
You have an asses mind.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 11:46:27 UTC No. 16480503

>>16480470
Cuck

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:00:44 UTC No. 16480524

>>16480477
>>16480490
You have a retarded mind that will always be trapped in your deformed body.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:01:09 UTC No. 16480526

>>16480503
CAWWWW

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:02:34 UTC No. 16480528

>>16480503
>t. the anon who is cucking to some ethereal willpower in which they can't even determine the degrees of freedom instead of simply accepting you are simply yourself and you are limited to what you can be

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:02:40 UTC No. 16480529

>>16480524

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:05:23 UTC No. 16480532

>>16477871
I'm a /sci/ philosophag, and I agree with determinism. I don't see how I can be one but not the other at once.

Before the universe existed, there was only the fluctuation between nothingness and something, but all of a sudden, those fluctuations triggered violent expansion, subsequently causing the energy that hence came to create a huge number of elementary particles; What they call the big bang. Energy can be converted into matter, it's the basis of physics. Those elementary particles, each acted in their own predetermined way. Flying around, combining, making atoms, making molecules, making every kind of matter. Giving form to everything in this universe. I don't believe in chance. I don't believe in quantum randomness. Everything is inevitable. The earth, the birth of humanity, cigarettes being made, you reading this post right now, the thought you just had... all of it. It was all laid out the moment the universe came into existence. Nothing more than the extension of the cascading behavior of energy and elementary particles created 13.8 billion years ago. You can't change fate.

200 million years ago, our mammalian ancestors developed a neocortex, giving them a superior intellectual capacity. The neocortex continued to hypertrophy through the evolutionary process, giving rise to tools, to sociality, to complex emotions. This was all part of the script. It's even more contrived than anything you'd see in a Hollywood blockbuster.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:07:01 UTC No. 16480535

>>16480532
No one gives a shit about your mind you dumb cunt. ((You)) wait.

Anonymous at Mon, 18 Nov 2024 12:07:19 UTC No. 16480536

>>16480535
kys dumb nigger

Anonymous at Wed, 20 Nov 2024 06:38:34 UTC No. 16485966

>>16480532
>the fluctuation between nothingness and something,
Nothing is something, it doesn't fluctuate between the two, it is the two things at once +0=-0.

Anonymous at Wed, 20 Nov 2024 07:35:25 UTC No. 16485996

The only chance for free will is if quantum mechanics randomness is real — but it probably isn’t so that’s that. How to succinctly explain it to midwits: 1+1 always = 2, and if you run that equation for eternity the answer will be 2 an infinity number of times; the universe is deterministic, the end. Every single atomic interaction that led to every action you take has been set in stone since the universe began and the illusion of free choice exists solely as an imaginary concept your brain manifests because it lacks the ability to sense and track the universe at the atomic level, just as if you look closely enough at a circle on your screen you will notice that it’s actually made up of joined squares and the curvature was merely an illusion your brain supplied as a representation of reality.

Anonymous at Wed, 20 Nov 2024 11:17:47 UTC No. 16486152

>>16477871
>he believes in the law of excluded middle

Anonymous at Wed, 20 Nov 2024 13:07:04 UTC No. 16486289

>>16477883
Indeed, ideas such as Nihilism would be laughed at by sciencetards who are all religious and mentally ill schizophrenics.

Anonymous at Wed, 20 Nov 2024 21:20:53 UTC No. 16486998

>>16478034
If you don't think randomness exists, then why do you reject determinism?

Anonymous at Thu, 21 Nov 2024 01:19:37 UTC No. 16487316

>>16477871
free will is an emergent property from the structure of the brain

Anonymous at Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:22:20 UTC No. 16487645

>>16487316
no such thing as free will

Anonymous at Thu, 21 Nov 2024 09:34:59 UTC No. 16487676

>>16477871
>how is it not caused by anything but also not random?
It is caused by the person making the choice.
>how does it escape either having causes or not having them?
It does have causes, and the causes are part of the person making the choice.
Determinism is incoherent theological nonsense. I don't believe in determinism for the same reason I don't believe in god.
There will always be religious idiots though.

Anonymous at Thu, 21 Nov 2024 13:24:14 UTC No. 16487821

>>16477871
>impossible self-causation
as opposed to the possible self-causation you have yet to learn about

Anonymous at Fri, 22 Nov 2024 06:09:18 UTC No. 16488870

>>16487316
If you were free as that implies, you could will your brain to have a completely different structure instead of depending on your brain structure to have various personality properties.

Anonymous at Fri, 22 Nov 2024 15:18:46 UTC No. 16489226

>>16477871
>that's it. just like a number must be even or odd.
>there's no third option
what about 0?

Anonymous at Fri, 22 Nov 2024 21:27:47 UTC No. 16489669

>>16487676
>It is caused by the person making the choice.
So it's determined?

Anonymous at Fri, 22 Nov 2024 21:30:21 UTC No. 16489672

this is a dumb fucking thread

Anonymous at Fri, 22 Nov 2024 21:39:24 UTC No. 16489680

>>16477871
Not caused doesn't mean random lol are you still learning basic English?

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 08:18:57 UTC No. 16490266

>>16477871
The law of the excluded middle isn’t valid. The third option is that choice is undecidable.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 09:21:11 UTC No. 16490278

>>16477871
Your imagine is sequential but reality is relational. Therefore you can't discern between actor and it's environment: all move as one so there never is any particular cause to point to.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:35:09 UTC No. 16490762

>>16487676
>It is caused by the person making the choice
But there are things that caused that person to make a choice, and things which caused those things. People do not exist separately from their environment, and their actions are entirely determined. Any separation between individuals and the environment exists only as a social concept. Everything is stuff interacting with other stuff, and those interactions are all either determined or random.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:47:20 UTC No. 16490777

>>16489226
Not a number.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:53:33 UTC No. 16490783

>>16490762
>People do not exist separately from their environment,
Exactly.
>>16490762
>Any separation between individuals and the environment exists only as a social concept.
Exactly.
>Everything is stuff interacting with other stuff,
Exactly.
>their actions are entirely determined
Does not follow from the above. The lack separation between organism and environment means exactly that there is no agent to point to so there's no agent that is determined either. A network i.e. a complex system does not have a center that acts or is acted upon. It's indeed all a bunch of stuff interacting. So the alternative to determinism and free will is interaction.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 19:59:01 UTC No. 16490790

>>16490783
Is the formation of a hurricane not determined by the prior state of the atmosphere? It may be impossible to predict through calculations, but it's determined. Same goes for human thought and will.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:09:13 UTC No. 16490803

>>16490790
>the prior state
Notice how you summarize an entirety of complex interactions as if it were a singular thing, as if that entirety is even remotely comparable to cue stick hitting a cue ball. Are you seriously arguing that?

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:22:45 UTC No. 16490811

>>16490783
If each individual interaction is deterministic, then the state of the entire system is deterministic, regardless of complexity. Identical initial conditions will lead to identical outcomes.
If some or all of the individual interactions are random, then the system is not deterministic, but randomness is not will.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:35:22 UTC No. 16490820

>>16490811
Your brand of determinism following from your logic is not the cue stick and ball analogy of the OP but the inability to do otherwise claim which I recontextualize as observing how patterns are formed in the static displayed by a television screen. Perhaps the formation and sequence of patterns couldn't be otherwise but in this analogy there's no distinction between one thing causing another thing. This is truly a case of correlation does not equal causation. One particular state may consistently follow a previous particular state but there is no causal connection.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:47:41 UTC No. 16490825

>>16490820
>One particular state may consistently follow a previous particular state but there is no causal connection
This is patently false. Chaotic systems made up of deterministic elements are still just as deterministic as simple systems, like the cue ball example. The only thing that differentiates them is that in one case, it is relatively trivial to measure the initial state of each element involved (the positions, weights, shapes and velocities of each ball); and in the other it is effectively impossible for a human to do.
If you didn't actually know the exact position and velocity of your cue ball, then it would be impossible to determine where each of the balls is going to go beforehand, but your knowledge of the system does not change whether the system is or is not deterministic.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 20:52:47 UTC No. 16490831

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 21:02:29 UTC No. 16490841

>>16490825
Your worldview seems rather binary which is inherent to the act of measuring. In your worldview there is one thing and there is another thing and things are in this state at one moment and in that state in the next moment. However earlier on you've stated that:
>Any separation between individuals and the environment exists only as a social concept.
This statement shows that you do have a sense that everything is more like a continuum.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 21:13:55 UTC No. 16490847

I believe I have free will, therefore I do. I have made several decisions based on deep considerations and in spite of gut reaction.

Anonymous at Sat, 23 Nov 2024 22:30:39 UTC No. 16490934

>>16490841
At the very bottom of the scale of the universe, there is some fundamental set of things. These things concretely exist and interact with each other, and make up everything in the world. Either their interactions are deterministic, and follow concrete natural laws, or their interactions have an element of randomness, and can only be understood probabilistically. Regardless of if they are particles or fields or something more exotic, this must be true, and therefore every single thing in the entire universe is similarly either deterministic or probabilistic.