🧵 Origins of life
Anonymous at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:20:15 UTC No. 16581921
I remember back in college, some professor made a reference to the Miller-Urey experiment as to how life originated on Earth. Although it does answer a question, it doesn't address the one in the title at all. The experiment merely explains how you get organic compounds from inorganic ones. It doesn't say how organic compounds came together to form the first cell, which is far more complex than it lets on. This first cell had to be able to move, eat, poop and must have required a membrane wall to survive for even an instant. Pic unrelated.
Anonymous at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:36:42 UTC No. 16581948
>>16581921
This reminds me of the following simmilar argument that I've read multiple times before:
>there are more possible (random) combinations of organic compounds than there are atoms in the universe, thus life (combinations that are viable for life are extremely rare) could never emerge from a random primordial soup of organic compounds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Y
However just from simple matrices that contain attraction and repulsion terms for other types of particles (basically different atoms and molecules having different electric charges and interacting accordingly), you can have really complex structures emerge.
IDK if that'd work in a primordial soup with different kinds of organic compounds, but I'd probably guess it worked in a simmilar fashion and the emerging structures you mentioned (cell membrane, nucleus, etc) didn't just emerge randomly, but had the laws of physics and chemistry on their side as a stable configuration that minimizes energy, and are thus vastly more likely to appear than you'd expect from just a randomized selection of ensembles of organic compounds.
Anonymous at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:41:04 UTC No. 16581953
>>16581921
Membrane walls self assemble(this is how soap works). Eating and pooping can happen via diffusion. Mobility is unneeded if the environment constantly replenishes depleted nutrients. Metabolism was probably not of the sugars and fats we’re familiar with, but of a far less stable reactant that was constantly being replenished by the substrate. Yes, you’d need an incredibly stable forgiving environment for this to be the case, but we’re talking about an event that only had to happen once on a miniscule scale in several million years. The first life was probably a liposome with a slightly different internal environment, breaking down amino acids into long chains of carbons to be incorporated into its membrane, distinguishable from its chemical cousins only by a marginally faster rate of growth and division.
🗑️ Yevgeniy Pillman at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:49:16 UTC No. 16581959
>>16581950
Beautiful run and hide tactics, manchild
🗑️ Cult of Passion at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:53:03 UTC No. 16581962
>>16581959
Why are talking about me and not Prganic Chemsitry, Cellular Biology or anything related to the thread?...
>BECAUSE YOU ARE MY GOD AND I NEED HELP! ALL I KNOW IS LIES AND YOU, THE WAY-THE TRUTH-THE LIFE!
I know....I know...
https://youtu.be/IbrBZC5zLRw
[TAPS SIGN HARDER]
Anonymous at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:54:02 UTC No. 16581963
https://youtu.be/nNK3u8uVG7o
Is this sort of what you’re looking for? Funnily enough this theory kind of proposes that abiogenesis in earths conditions was kind of inevitable
🗑️ Yevgeniy Pillman at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:55:17 UTC No. 16581964
>>16581962
>Childish meltdown
Good job running and hiding, manchild
Anonymous at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 22:55:19 UTC No. 16581965
>>16581948
It’s a silly argument anyways, it’s not like amino acids and lipids are crazy complex structures to begin with. There’s only so many stable ways for oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen to bond, you put a couple billion billion in a test tube and zap it a bit and it would be weirder if they *didn’t* make at least a couple amino acids along the way. Thats the whole point of Miller-Urey.
🗑️ Cult of Passion at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:26:30 UTC No. 16581983
>>16581964
>meltdown
>running and hiding
This video is about you...
https://youtu.be/_a_Z_q-w-5Y
...you NEVER talk about any science on a science board...you ONLY talk about God, me, YOUR GOD, because you cannot see anything else in reality, except ME, YOUR GOD.
YOU ARE A RELIGOUS ZEALOT.
🗑️ Cult of Passion at Mon, 10 Feb 2025 23:31:12 UTC No. 16581985
>>16581965
The simplicity of the structure is irrelevent to the combinatorial number of possible structures, decay rates, and chirality.
https://youtu.be/vVE8kgKW-wk
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 00:33:29 UTC No. 16582021
>>16581965
I'm not talking about the amino acids and lipids, we've known those can and do form just by putting a bunch of the right atoms in a jar under the right conditions.
Thats why the discovery of amino acids on that asteroid bennu or something aren't that sensational, because we know those can and do form without the presence of life.
I'm talking about the actually crazy complex structures that may emerge from these amino acids like actual useful non-meaningless strands of DNA n shit, we have the amino acids and other organic molecules, the building blocks, the question is how the fck do we get a (non-living) soup of organic molecules to assemble into a (living) primordial cell, the origin of the first living thing in the universe.
Because THATS where your possible amounts of organic molecule configurations you theoretically could put them together in is larger than the number of atoms in the universe by orders of magnitude.
To create those crazy complex thingys is the topic that my initial post dicusses.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 02:13:40 UTC No. 16582062
>>16581948
>>16581953
>>16582021
The explanations make sense, the only problem I have with them is the statistical improbability of such an event happening. Take for example the Spike protein in SARS-CoV-2 that is made up of 1400 amino acids. The number of possible configurations is 20^1400 and we’re only talking about an itty bitty virus. Given the current age of the universe, not enough time elapsed to allow for such complex and diverse life to form. Your explanation is too cute and simple to account for anything. :(
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 02:35:54 UTC No. 16582084
>>16581953
> The first life was probably a liposome with a slightly different internal environment, breaking down amino acids into long chains of carbons to be incorporated into its membrane, distinguishable from its chemical cousins only by a marginally faster rate of growth and division.
Unlikely, liposomes don’t replicate unless they themselves contain the necessary tools (eg. replicase). But like I wrote above, replicase may contain thousands of amino acids. I don’t need to tell you the number of possible configurations again, do I?
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 03:09:16 UTC No. 16582106
>>16582021
>>16582062
>>16581948
it's obvious that a primordial fractal is compressed and encoded into all 6 quark types (and whatever sub-quark particle that composes them)
from there, complex structures emerge, following its directive relative to its environment
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 03:21:14 UTC No. 16582114
>>16582084
>the number of possible configurations
[math]10^{1301}[/math]
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 06:17:19 UTC No. 16582213
nothing that happens is due to magic or gods. everything that has ever happened is valid based on the laws of this universe. low probability doesn't mean gods. else you need to prove that lower than some small probability limit it becomes some god's work. if you can't do this then you're imagining things.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 06:57:19 UTC No. 16582227
>>16581921
The primordial origins are impossible to trace. The biochemical theory is that self replicating polymers such as proteins and nucleic acids came to be.
Even the nucleic acid bit is sketchy, it may not have been the first but proved to be the more successful biomechanism to still last to this day.
Among the primordial pre eukaryan organisms, some of the oversized bacteria consumed others and these happened to make their survival easier, thus some organelles like chloroplasts and mitochondria are descendants of the eaten organism. These could happen any number of times.
Sometimes amazing stuff happens in biology, like an octopus creating its own eye from nothing. The first cells that assembled themselves, and any number that popped up thereon are unthinkable.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 06:59:14 UTC No. 16582229
>>16581921
Pre-Socratic philosophy: Order from chaos. A thunderstorm and tornado are good examples. From all of these extremely chaotic forces smashing together, you end up with a highly structured system. The entire universe essentially operates like this. Heraclitus' concept of the logos i.e. the blending of the world of being with the world of becoming, the logos IS change itself. No teleology required.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 07:03:14 UTC No. 16582231
Haven't we found basic amino acids and proteins on meteorites? Like that shit is just being constantly created everywhere, even in space?
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:32:12 UTC No. 16582283
>>16581921
Brain is evil.
Always hidden but ruling everything.
Insatiable, selfish, cruel monster. Especially its true nature can be observed in so called geniuses, because the power of their brain literally owns both body and consciousness, making them absolutely dominated and eliminated from life activity.
That's why "smart" people, scientists, geniuses, ppl with high IQ, lack empathy, ability of being humane, lack sorrow, kindness. They're usually extremely egocentric, narcisstic, violent, depraved, but also very smart in adopting to the societal norms, mimicking behavior to be "normal" part of society to exploit it, manipulate, use it as a bio-source for best possible feeding, comfort, wealth(as a reserve for future stability) and of course, attention, feeling of superiority, their best loved meal they can only get from bigger masses.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:40:51 UTC No. 16582291
It's all projection based on Hegelian metaphysical assumptions. It's like a turtle worshipping culture saying the world is on the back of a turtle.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 08:49:32 UTC No. 16582298
>>16582291
The assumption is that world has to start from simpler and simpler states as you go back in the past, and complexify as time goes on.
Modern man, following Hegel, conceives of time as a vector, a direction, along which 'development' occurs. He applies this model to history, technology, biology (Darwin), life in all its aspects. Naturally he then constructs his whole cosmology based on that model.
Also with 'reason' enshrined in modern values, and the brain knowing more about the present than the past, the past necessarily has to be conceived of as 'simpler' because reason has undergone a perversion where instead of being a tool to measure reality it becomes 'the measure' of reality, so if the brain knows less about something it must necessarily then be simpler, and this bias is projected into man's conception of the past.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 13:05:32 UTC No. 16582424
>>16581965
Count the ways. Go ahead.
Anonymous at Tue, 11 Feb 2025 13:15:29 UTC No. 16582433
>>16582283
nice enemy projection there. in reality smarter people get a better understanding on the basis of human interaction and how to protect themselves against bullshit. each and every single time the best course of action is to minimize interaction with other people