🧵 Sword/Blade Art MMA
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 03:11:47 UTC No. 125282
Kendo vs Oly fencing vs HEMA vs Eskrima. Who wins and why?
I vote Oly fencing as it has the biggest talent pool and pressure testing due to being an Olympic sport.
Then Kendo as it is a well established art again with a large pressure tested talent pool.
Then Eskrima as in the Philippines at least in gets pressure testing by people actually killing each other with blades plus full contact competitions.
HEMA last as it's the newest so somewhat dorkiest and has yet to establish a widespread pressure testing format.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 04:08:33 UTC No. 125291
This would all come down to ruleset. Both kendo and oly fencing have frankly unrealistic scoring systems and the tactics are a bit abstract because of it. Like in Kendo, accidental blows don't count. You have to strike with intention. And oly fencing has weird systems like right of way and their foils weigh less than a pound.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 04:56:18 UTC No. 125295
>>125291
/thread
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 05:46:08 UTC No. 125300
>>125291
I see. Ok construct a flexible ruleset that allows for cross style blade competition like the unified rules of MMA for all styles, K1 kickboxing does for striking, ADCC does for grappling?
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 07:05:08 UTC No. 125308
>>125300
It’s difficult because you have to account for the fact that some cuts would be deadly, some cuts would be dibilitating, and some cuts would hurt but not be a big deal even if they’re too a vital area. There’s no really good way to account for this. If you create a computer program people will train to trick the program. If you have human judges people will fight to convince the judges. There’s really no way to test weapon arts without truly fighting with the weapon. Every culture has their own method for training without killing but none will ever be perfect.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 10:50:13 UTC No. 125317
>>125308
So there's no way to determine which blade art is the best other than get people to actually kill and maim each other for real?
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 11:30:04 UTC No. 125321
>>125317
Correct. You can't have something that's both safe and representative of a "real fight".
Different sports have different goals. Olympic fencing for example just tries to be an objective test of ability. It doesn't care if it'd work in a "real fight". The rules are the rules, and your goal is to work optimally within them.
For contrast, HEMA competition deliberately doesn't have a unified ruleset. The thought here is that if every tournament runs on different rules, then you can't minmax for a particular ruleset, which should in theory promote very "generalist" skills, and a better environment to pressure-test your interpretation of a historical style. Even then, the goal isn't ever to replicate a "real fight", but just to come up with a variety of good ways to test your skills.
Why do I keep putting "real fight" in quotes? Because the scenario most people picture for it is retarded and nor very historical.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 13:26:20 UTC No. 125327
>>125321
So the only way to test your blade art works under pressure against other blade arts is to hunt down practitioners of other arts and kill them?
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:01:29 UTC No. 125353
>>125282
Olympic fencers would win, if only for their athleticism.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 21:21:36 UTC No. 125368
>>125282
Normally it should be Kendo and I am not even a Weeaboo. Simple reason is that: Fencers today have the stupid idea of attacking without thinking about consequences and also epee's and Spadroons suck against heavier weapons. Saber would be fine if it were not for the mindset that makes them train horribly wrong moves.
Eskrima is generally pretty worthless, you never see anyone applying anything under pressure.
HEMA should be on the same level as Kendo, but from my experience many HEMA guys are the typical untrained overweight nerds that gas out and/or cant deal with real pressure since they expect you to attack just like in the book so they can do their moves just like in the book.
Kendo is the only Blade art that combines a strong sword with the (more or less) right mindset and has people who actually pressure train.
That said, goddamn, I wish I could train Longsword and Dussack somewhere around here.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 21:24:47 UTC No. 125369
>>125291
>And oly fencing has weird systems like right of way
right of way was actually a good intention. It should have encouraged both fencers to parry a strike instead of just going for a double hit. But the modern interpretation of it is indeed horrible.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 21:53:53 UTC No. 125374
>>125368
I'm pretty sure there is a competitive eskrima scene. I don't even do FMA but I've never seen them regarded as ineffective, though there seems to be varying levels of quality, especially in the west.
Anonymous at Fri, 18 Nov 2022 23:26:55 UTC No. 125379
>>125374
Dog Brothers used to be the big name in the states. Dunno about now. Flips still do single and double stick unarmored tournaments. Even bad escrima is usually better than most TMA types. If for no other reason than you spend all day hitting something.
Anonymous at Sat, 19 Nov 2022 02:46:14 UTC No. 125395
>>125368
I agree with this. Except for Eskrima being useless. I mean it's a living art people use to actively maim and kill with still in the Philippines not to mention pressure tested at full contact competitions even that gay-cruising Dog Brothers thing. Tho most people into it in the West do seem a bit dorky.
Anonymous at Sat, 19 Nov 2022 02:59:39 UTC No. 125398
>>125396
Mishimas Autism matches their own.
Anonymous at Sat, 19 Nov 2022 03:41:52 UTC No. 125401
>>125398
Mishima was literally a failure who could't cope with his own sexuality and killed himself. It's just bizzare how they idol worshipped him.
Meanwhile, Miyamoto went around kicking ass and developed philosophical insights into combat that are still relevant.
Anonymous at Sat, 19 Nov 2022 12:05:58 UTC No. 125435
>>125396
At least Mishima actually existed. The historical Musashi is about as flimsy as Christ or Muhammad.
Anonymous at Sun, 20 Nov 2022 00:20:35 UTC No. 125509
>>125435
What are you talking about m8. We have contemporary accounts of him as well as writing and art that can be reliably attributed to him. His legendary duelling record is probably exaggerated but Musashi the wandering samurai-philosopher absolutely existed.
Anonymous at Wed, 23 Nov 2022 23:31:31 UTC No. 126024
>>125509
Considering that most "duels" of that era were not lethal I can at least believe the number. The Japanese word implies something more like "no holds barred match" than duel, and they often used wooden or bamboo weapons rather than sharps. The thing about Musashi using a wooden sword for duels is in no way unique to him.
Anonymous at Tue, 13 Dec 2022 21:24:47 UTC No. 129044
>>125368
>Fencers today have the stupid idea of attacking without thinking about consequences
bruh, you think kendo practitioners do either? They barely defend worth a crap either and double all over the place.
THe only difference between fencing and Kendo, action wise, is having a heavier blade. and Fencing at least maximizes swiftness. of course it depends on the ruleset, but if its first hit, id put my money on fencing.
Anonymous at Thu, 15 Dec 2022 01:09:34 UTC No. 129151
>>125282
I like that Jian sparring is becoming a lot more popular in Kung Fu tournaments. I've done Kung Fu going on 9 years now and our school is a southern school. My Sifu was from Wudangshan and Jian is a big part of our training and a weapon everyone had to learn regardless of their wants or specializations. Jian fighting is really dynamic and attack styles and angles can very dramatically from one stylist to the next. I've only done blunted weapon sparring in the studio, next year I'll be doing my first tournament with wooden Jians gambesons and kendo masks. I can't wait to see how I do.
Anonymous at Thu, 15 Dec 2022 02:20:14 UTC No. 129158
>>129151
Good shout didn't think of CMA sword work especially as figured it would be performative with no sparring.
Gatka/indian sword play I recently learnt has sparring/competitions not just performative so that's a contender.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Jan 2023 23:59:35 UTC No. 131509
>>129044
>bruh, you think kendo practitioners do either? They barely defend worth a crap either and double all over the place.
They do defend, however there's no pure defense in Kendo, the "defensive" techniques are more about proactive control of the opponent to make them throw a technique that is then countered. Blocking also exists.
Anonymous at Thu, 5 Jan 2023 16:43:02 UTC No. 131568
>>125509
What are the sources outside of what he wrote about himself in his book?
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 04:23:53 UTC No. 131651
>>131509
I mean, that could also be said of fencing though, which was my point. Especially Epee and Foil. sabre is a bit too gung ho, but the other two place a MAJOR emphasis on right of way, and the same type of proactive control you are talking about.
I was more trying to say that Kendo has a similar degree of defence to (most) of fencing, which kinda made the other anon's point moot.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 09:14:44 UTC No. 131669
>>131651
There is no right of way in épée (doesn't mean that there's no defense in épée, just that row doesn't play a part). Actually it might be argued that row creates a false sense of defense and that épée, without it, is the most patient and defensive oriented of the three weapons, as it should be.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 15:01:53 UTC No. 131684
>>131568
Is early life is well documented among the samurai with which he was raised. I bet you’re the same kind of retard who thinks Shakespeare was a fraud too just because the idea of someone being better than you at something makes you feel insecure.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 16:56:15 UTC No. 131691
>>131684
Again, which sources?
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 20:34:00 UTC No. 131706
>>131691
Hyoho se sho denki, anecdotes of the deceased master. Also the fact that he had multiple adopted children and students unless you think they’re all made up too.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 20:39:50 UTC No. 131708
>>131706
I'm saying his achievements are made up because he's the only one who wrote about them.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 20:58:24 UTC No. 131710
>>125435
>at least Mishima actually existed
>>131568
>says nothing about the other anon saying his record is exaggerated, only asserts that he existed
>”GIBS PROOF” (presumably that he existed)
>>131691
>”GIBS PROOF”
>>131708
>gets proven wrong
>”no haha, I just meant his achievements are inflated”
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:07:29 UTC No. 131712
>>131710
Do you think there's only one person in this thread, retard? I also can't find anything about >>131706 and that was the only source provided so far.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:12:53 UTC No. 131714
>>131712
>Do you think there's only one person in this thread
If you respond to someone claiming a person existed with “gobs sources” you’re clearly saying he didn’t exist, fucking retard. Why would you even butt in if that’s not what you were saying since literally everyone agreed the dueling record is exaggerated. Either you’re a moron for that or (more likely) a retard desperately avoiding admitting you said something dumb, dumbass.
>can’t find muh source
God learn to use google you faggot.
http://ichijoji.blogspot.com/2011/0
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:16:56 UTC No. 131716
>>131714
What do I care about what someone else posted, retard? You expect me to take into account every post ever made on this fucking website? Which part of >>131568 made you believe that his existence was called into question? Illiterate fucking troglodyte.
>blogpost as a source
Nice one, imbecile.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:19:47 UTC No. 131717
>>131716
>doesn’t read the thread
>gets mad at everyone else he acted like a retard as a result
Lmao
>muh blogpost
It’s a review of the book. Holy shit you’re fucking stupid.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:20:42 UTC No. 131718
>>131717
>can't read
>says retarded shit
>his only source is a blog post
Kill yourself.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:21:38 UTC No. 131719
>>131718
The source is the book being talked about in the blog. You’d know that if you even read the first line of the link. This is getting embarrassing.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:24:18 UTC No. 131721
>>131719
Keep at it, I'm sure Musashi will rise from the grave and suck your cock one day.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:32:27 UTC No. 131722
>>131721
You’re so mad about being wrong lol. You don’t have to keep posting. You’re anonymous no one will know.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:36:49 UTC No. 131723
>>131722
I'm sure he totally won 100+ fights just like he wrote in his own book about himself and was definitely not peddling bullshit to promote his dojo.
Still waiting for the source by the way.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:43:03 UTC No. 131724
>>131723
> I'm sure he totally won 100+ fights just like he wrote in his own book about himself
Lmao nobody said that was true
> Still waiting for the source by the way.
https://www.amazon.com/Real-Musashi
Read it yourself then. Either that or keep seething.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:48:18 UTC No. 131725
>>131724
This is just shilling at this point.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 22:10:25 UTC No. 131728
>>131725
Lmfao do you even know what shilling mean? Are you 14? Who is paying me? The secret cabal of musashi historians?
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 22:21:48 UTC No. 131729
>>131728
Can you post a source that is accessible for free? These books are not even available on book pirating sites. You're claiming to use them as your source but do you actually have them yourself?
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 22:28:30 UTC No. 131732
>>131729
I gave you the blogpost for a reason. Sorry good secondary sources cost money. Do you want an encyclopedia Britanica article instead?
>but do you own it
I’m not the one shouting about how musashi isn’t real. I don’t need to see the primary sources myself because I trust the historical consensus.
I’m sorry 9 dollar is too steep for you.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 22:30:18 UTC No. 131733
>>131732
So you're shilling for a paywalled source that you haven't read yourself.
Anonymous at Fri, 6 Jan 2023 22:38:56 UTC No. 131736
>>131733
>shilling
So yes you really don’t know what that means. Whatever retard. I’m sorry being wrong about musashi existing is really making you seethe. Go ahead and have the last word I can tell it’s important to you, lol.
Anonymous at Sat, 7 Jan 2023 05:23:19 UTC No. 131784
>>131729
Have you heard of a library?
Anonymous at Thu, 19 Jan 2023 23:30:51 UTC No. 132843
>>131669
>There is no right of way in épée (doesn't mean that there's no defense in épée, just that row doesn't play a part)
yah, thats what I meant in short hand. Epee doesn't have right of way as an explicit rule, but its usually pretty defensive as a (implicit) rule.
>creates a false sense of defense
Well, IDK if its false then, but actual, in a practical sense.
Anonymous at Sat, 21 Jan 2023 15:33:45 UTC No. 133054
You know there is a whole guy that teaches Musashi techniques.
And they are effective af.
It's almost hard not to win if you know the techniques of nitenichi ryu.
Anonymous at Sat, 21 Jan 2023 15:56:51 UTC No. 133056
>>133054
Where?
Anonymous at Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:00 UTC No. 133061
>>125282
Fencing
Anonymous at Sat, 21 Jan 2023 21:46:48 UTC No. 133088
>>133056
School called Niten ichi ryu . Musashi lineage in japan and Brazil among other countries.
I been train g in his style for almost 3 years now.
Anonymous at Sun, 22 Jan 2023 05:15:48 UTC No. 133121
Just got a new Zhan Ma Dao! If you lurk in the same boards and threads I do, you've already seen me excitedly post it elsewhere.
Very similar to Japanese katana/wakasashi. I've never done Japanese martial arts, only chinese. I think it's interesting how the traditional chinese sabre profile is so similar to the Japanese (because of obvious common origin I know that). But in popular culture we almost exclusively see the chinese dao represented with the, relatively speaking, new ox tail/willow leaf dao design with the big scimitar like spine. If I recall correctly the ox tail dao wasn't developed until the Qing dynasty. Even then, it was only used by militias and civilians and was never adopted for formal military use in the Qing army. The majority of chinese military history the dao had a similar blade profile to the one you see here. I think contemporary media portrays the dao with the ox tail because it's more immediately identifiable at first glance on a tv screen. Only someone really familiar Japanese or Chinese swords would be able to tell the differences. That's my game theory, I think the willow leaf dao shape is more popular today just simply because it looks cooler. It's busier and easier to grab your attention from an entertainment point of view, with no thought given to practical/historical usefullness. I think that popularity in early martial arts media implanted into peoples minds what chinese swords look like, and I've met many people who had no idea historic chinese dao earlier than 300 years ago were very reminiscent of the katana.
Anonymous at Sun, 22 Jan 2023 18:23:30 UTC No. 133184
>>133121
Chinese swords are a complicated subject because names and designs changed over time, but many of those katana shaped blades were actually inspired by the taichi and nodachi swords used by the Japanese. There are even examples of Japanese made blades in Chinese hilts. The Japanese had a pretty large export business for their swords and we can find examples all over eastern and south eastern Asia
Anonymous at Sun, 22 Jan 2023 19:28:24 UTC No. 133189
>>133054
proof? got vids of it fighting different styles and stuff?
seems like a prerec to say its effective af.
Anonymous at Tue, 24 Jan 2023 02:52:31 UTC No. 133381
>>133189
How effective it is I can't say but the school does survive as historically verifiable lineage.
Anonymous at Tue, 24 Jan 2023 09:44:52 UTC No. 133411
>>133381
>How effective it is I can't say but the school does survive as historically verifiable lineage.
That's the case of dozens of other schools, HNIR isn't particularly noteworthy in that regard.
Anonymous at Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:56:59 UTC No. 133668
>>133589
This... doesn't seem to be anything special really. It's just decomposing movement and showing how to put two half steps with two half strikes. If you're going for a clearing blow or finding the opponent's blade, it's a good idea to make an uncommiting step if you can, though here distance seems a bit off, these half steps and cuts are crucial at closer range, you might not even have time for steps but for hip turns instead.
I have been taught TSKSR for comparison and this is nothing really special, it's how we do okkachi and most of the blade findings.