🧵 Untitled Thread
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 08:26:05 UTC No. 128244
Is Judo the most effective grappling art for self-defense?
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 10:29:57 UTC No. 128249
>>128244
Nah it's karate
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 10:47:17 UTC No. 128250
>>128244
No, it relies far too heavily on the jacket and jacket grips. Banning leg grabs and many forms of newaza also hurts it.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 13:17:51 UTC No. 128254
>>128250
>he ttains the sport form instead of the self defense one
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 13:35:31 UTC No. 128255
>>128254
Why do all the most retarded posters here claim to train obscure styles of martial arts that aren’t available anywhere. It’s almost like you’re LARPing or something.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 14:02:15 UTC No. 128259
>>128255
Judo with no gi without the rules used in sport exist nigger its not obscure,
If you wanna fuck someone up boxing(better if thai) and judo work fine, just train like they did before the rules with no gi
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 14:20:42 UTC No. 128263
>>128259
Literally never seen this anywhere in the entirety of the UK or where I briefly lived in the U.S. (NYC).
We get taught some basic Judo throws while wearing no-Gi in MMA/wrestling for MMA. But that is not what you are describing.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 15:30:50 UTC No. 128272
>>128244
No, gouging is.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 17:14:57 UTC No. 128280
It's definitely up there. There's a reason why judo has been the base for many self-defense, MMA, and police/military training. Judo is quite practically the most influential grappling style. It helped spawn Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Sambo. Not to mention Luta Livre, Defendu, Krav Maga, Systema, and so many other styles. Only Catch-as-Catch-Can Wrestling can boast itself as a grappling style that played a huge part in combative sport and fight science.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 17:17:00 UTC No. 128281
>>128254
>>128255
my dojo is kind of like this. We do normal judo shit but we also teach some traditional shit like atemi-waza, we teach all the throws including leg grabs and allow them in in-dojo competitions and allow it when other dojos come in if they want to try it. We also teach adaptations for certain throws if there's no gi. We go more in depth on traditional top game ground fighting, etc. Most judo dojos we have visited dont do half the shit we do
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 17:17:15 UTC No. 128282
Yes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comme
>inb4 reddit
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 17:42:25 UTC No. 128283
>>128244
no. its too reliant on particular executions. also, its only that practicable if you live somewhere where people are wearing sturdier cold weather cloths.
You are looking for wrestling (olympic, freestyle, etc)
>>128259
yah, its called wrestling.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 17:51:39 UTC No. 128286
>>128283
>https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comm
>this nigga doesn't know Harai goshi or Osoto gari
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 18:29:02 UTC No. 128291
>>128281
Doing a one off lesson on banned techniques or nogi throws isn’t the same as “training the self defense form of judo” where it’s all nogi and everything’s allowed.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 21:16:15 UTC No. 128312
>>128291
We train them regularly and we do randori with everything allowed from time to time. The only thing we don't do is do it without the gi because no gi judo doesn't exist to that capacity and you're larping
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 21:21:14 UTC No. 128313
>>128286
Hip throws whizzer kicks and footsweeps arent exclusive to judo friend. It's like seeing a double leg in ufc and calling it morote gari like nah thats from wrestling
Also
>reddit link
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 21:47:34 UTC No. 128317
>>128315
yes.
any wushu might have a punch. If I show a mma fighter doing a straight left that doesn't mean every crane style taekwando and Bavarian lap dance with a straight left is good.
Anonymous at Wed, 7 Dec 2022 22:31:52 UTC No. 128322
>>128317
Judo isn’t wuwu Chinese nonsense you tard. Are you unaware of the multiple MMA champions with a judo background?
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 01:37:57 UTC No. 128342
>>128322
>Judo isn’t wuwu Chinese nonsense
that wasnt my point you dip. my point was that one or two moves does not a system make. Because someone did a hip throw or a punch, which are common between systems, doesnt make what they did "proof of judo", just makes it grappling. just like if someone throws a punch, that doesn't make it "karate".
And yes, how many of those champions cross trained in wrestling? and how often do they tend to go for more wresting techniques?
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 02:34:05 UTC No. 128352
>>128342
>And yes, how many of those champions cross trained in wrestling? and how often do they tend to go for more wresting techniques?
If cross training to any degree invalidates a base martial art then wrestling champions won’t exist either since the vast majority of western wrestling specialists train folk style or Greco-Roman, neither of which involve submissions at all.
Off the top of my head though, yoshida, akiyama, and rouser we’re all judo specialists. Fedor Emelienenko was all a qualified “master of sport” in both judo and sambo which shouldn’t be surprising since they’re directly related to each other and often taught side by side in Eastern Europe.
While we’re on the topic though, I have no idea why wrestlers have such a big stick up their ass about judo “relying on the gi” when wrestlers literally don’t do submissions at all and a majority of bjj is also done in the gi.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 03:33:38 UTC No. 128360
>>128352
maybe because bjj doesn't rely on the gi as much and many dont use it outright. While much of the initiation and engagement in Judo relies on it as a base to even work. holding each other's collars and cuffs. The difference here is that bjj wears the gi while much of judo uses it as a base for even engagement.
I did Judo bjj and wrestling, and the latter two ive really only found useful in scraps. throws are usually way too high risk middling reward. Things like trips and some hip throws are the only relitively "high percentile" moves that feel relatively safe outside of an explicitly Judo match. The submission piece I personally never felt mattered because thats largely a ground sort of thing (which wrestling and Judo are meant to transition you to, while bjj focuses on the ground itself). While wrestling functions on a "get the other person to the ground in an advantage state in a hustle" mentality which is much more effecual in a scrap. that's why in mma most take downs are single legs, double legs, and trips. Throws in a more particularly judo sense are the vast minority of "standing to ground" transitions.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 04:33:46 UTC No. 128364
>>128360
As far as “scraps” go the few situations I’ve found myself in (four, in total) where I had opportunity to use my martial skills outside of sanctioned competition two were ended by the throw itself. One was ended by a chokehold after I threw them and one was ended after failing to secure a submission I got halfway to to starting to g&p and the other guy gave up. I don’t have any doubt that judo is effectual in a “real” fight based on personal experience. That said, I really don’t have any doubt on any combat sports effectiveness in a scrap though because most people are fucking retarded, drunk or high when they get into fights, and are not actually conditioned for fighting more than 30 seconds at a time. Debating the best martial art for street fights is in general a fruitless endeavor since training for a year or more in pretty much any serious combat sport will leave you more than prepared for what you can reasonably be expected to win on da streetz
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 05:49:51 UTC No. 128372
Nah, son, that would be puroresu.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:45:44 UTC No. 128379
>>128244
Karate is, actual Karate that is, where you strike by pulling your opponent in and striking them with the free hand, its dirty, its quick and lethal, not that sport Karate though, fuck that.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 15:46:30 UTC No. 128395
Gouging and Judo. You grab them, throw them, and then gouge their eyes out.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 16:20:07 UTC No. 128397
>>128379
>No that Not My martial art, THIS is the REAL Martial art
why are karatekeks such posers?
>b-but thats what the OG okinawa Sensi Kotoko said
thats great, what about the 8 other sources that describe doing a double windmill kick to the thigh and other crazy things? Karate stans always pick and choose their sources to show their's is a "real" martial art (when in reality they are just doing mma that they found pleasing to call karate for aesthetic reasons and making tenuous conections)
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 16:23:20 UTC No. 128400
>>128397
> in reality they are just doing mma that they found pleasing to call karate for aesthetic reasons and making tenuous conections
That’s kinda based tho
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 16:23:50 UTC No. 128401
>>128395
gouging is not an effective primary technique. suplemental, sure, but not as a "main goal".
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 16:36:53 UTC No. 128403
>>128400
never said it wasn't. just that it is very poserish and dishonest to go
>real karate
like it was some long hidden purely effective self defense art that was "corrupted" instead of a wide variety of disparate traditions.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 17:00:03 UTC No. 128407
>>128364
I somewhat disagree. To an extent, yes, some training is better then no, BUT, the failure state of much of Judo Throws leave you very exposed. Its fine if it does go through, but if someones hips are lower then yours, or for some other reason it does not follow through, maybe they sprawl, you could very easily be exposing your back for a headlock or anything else. Thats why I said much of it is "high risk medium reward". Much of the methodology is for clean singular motions which if there is complications, cant always be relied upon.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 17:15:39 UTC No. 128410
>>128407
>the failure state of much of Judo Throws leave you very exposed
I hear this all the time and my response is no they don’t. Unless you do something wildly stupid like try and do a turning throw at arms length away youre not “exposed” to anything but a potential counter throw. Moreover if the first attempt fails you can just turn back with little risk unless again you’re trying to do it at a stupidly long distance. Also not every judo throw is a turning throw. Also wrestling trains turning throws too. This meme seriously needs to die.
> you could very easily be exposing your back for a headlock or anything else
Lmfao, lock the arm between the bicep and forearm when you do a shoulder throw to prevent the chokehold this is day one stuff. These retarded arguments are essentially “judo is bad if you do it like someone who doesn’t know judo.” It’d be like saying “well ackshually, double legs are bad because if you dive at someone with your head forward not protecting yourself from to far away you could get kicked!” Also wrestling doesn’t even teach submissions so good luck avoiding getting choked or armbar’d with no defensive skills dumbass.
> Much of the methodology is for clean singular motions which if there is complications, cant always be relied upon.
Yes anon judo is totally reliant on there being no complications. That’s why Olympic judo matches look so clean and fluid and not like a desperate struggle right?
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 17:20:01 UTC No. 128412
>>128283
i dont know where people started thinking that you can only grab these heavy duty winter jackets from. most people wear tshirts, which can definitely be grabbed. only people wearing rashguards or who are naked cant be grabbed; excluding john danaher and crackheads, who do you see in public that dont wear a hoodie and a shirt? even assuming you cant grab anything, judo has full blown body lock throws like supplexes.
>>128313
theres very little exclusivity anywhere. you cant call hip throws "not judo" but then call double legs "wrestling". both of them have it, and it gets complicated by the fact that everyone crosstrains, so your average judoka is also practicing guard from bjj, and your average nogi JJ is practicing takedowns from wrestling; however, the average wrestler, who is competing at schools, is not going to be practicing BJJ or judo because they don't have to. now if you actually want to compare martial arts, lets compare them in a complete vacuum based on how they're taught on average.
>Greco roman/freestyle
-learn takedown and pins with or without leg grabs
-doesnt rely on shirts and being able to grab clothing
>judo
-relies heavily on grabbing shirts
-learn takedown, pins, and submissions.
for most people, learning judo alone is the more practical choice than wrestling because most people wear clothes and have limbs that we can rip off to finish a fight once on the ground. if you bring crosstraining into the equation. it doesn't matter because then you pick and choose what you want, but most people barely have time to even train 1 discipline
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 17:54:07 UTC No. 128415
>>128412
You dont want your fighting style to be cloths dependent. You can grab t-shirts, but if you've ever backyard wrestled, unless you wear a particularly heavy tee, like a collared full wool, they will rip or stretch. Judo as a distinct thing, is very much defined by the gi. And the stuff that isnt (usually not trained as much) is very similar to Olympic style wrestling.
>there's very little exclusivity
then in those cases where its not system specific, you should probably say grappling rather than a particular. especially when most judo stuff, like I mentioned, has the gi in mind.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 18:04:31 UTC No. 128418
>>128415
I can’t even think a single judo throw that can’t be done nogi.
> And the stuff that isnt (usually not trained as much) is very similar to Olympic style wrestling.
Shit anon you’re really on to something. It’s almost like all grappling styles work in nearly exactly the same.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 18:12:28 UTC No. 128420
>>128410
>Turning throws
yes those are generally supplemental moves across disciplines in a fight I agree.
>Lmfao, lock the arm between the bicep and forearm
yes anon, it was an example. Im not saying specific moves are just plain out nono's thats stupid, im more talking about the greater whole of methodology. You CAN do most things in a way that will work, doesn't make them apropriate in general. If your system is about getting into the correct stance and getting your opponent off guard in footsy, I find that a bit too technical and flightily a bent for street fighting ethos. It will work sure, but idk about it being the most appropriate. rather than focusing on KISS.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 18:15:30 UTC No. 128421
>>128418
Yah, thats why I said you should probably say grappling if its not system particular. (unless of course its a difference in core methodology, see how a mai thai stance is more square then a boxers of a taekwondo's, or the level of agressivity).
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 19:29:18 UTC No. 128424
>>128420
What even is your criticism here? That judo is too technical but wrestling somehow isn’t? You write like a retard and you barely have a point so I’m forced to guess.
>If your system is about getting into the correct stance and getting your opponent off guard in footsy
Are you talking about using foot sweeps to knock someone off balance? How hard is it for you to kick someone’s foot? Spoiler alert by the way getting into good position for an attack is part of ALL martial arts.
>flightily
This isn’t even a word. Also the reason you have to use your feet to move people off balance in judo is because people who do judo have good balance. I’ve never had to do that in a scrap. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 19:30:59 UTC No. 128425
>>128421
>Yah, thats why I said you should probably say grappling if its not system particular.
Can you name a single wrestling move that is not in some way present in judo?
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 20:40:08 UTC No. 128429
>>128427
To be fair I’m pretty sure you can still stick your fingers in peoples assholes while doing judo we just choose not to because we’re not fucking weirdos like you.
Anonymous at Thu, 8 Dec 2022 20:48:38 UTC No. 128432
>>128429
close, you can shoot your forearm into someone's dick with te guruma
Anonymous at Fri, 9 Dec 2022 02:43:07 UTC No. 128483
In the end, it matters how YOU apply what you trained in. You want wrestling with handles where you can pin, choke or armlock someone? Judo is great since it also teaches you breakfalls.
Wrestling has conditioning second to none. You'll learn how to attack the legs as well as upper body throws. How to control your opponent on the ground with leverage and momentum.
You know why grappling is no-nonsense and doesn't involve mysticism smoke and mirrors? Because you have to practice against a resisting partner whose gonna toss you on your ass and smother you with pain compliance moves and pressure.
Grappling is a continuum; there is no be all and end all. You constantly learn and refine everyday when you train and pick up stuff from other approaches to wrestling.
Anonymous at Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:04:31 UTC No. 128871
>>128244
Combat sambo is way better, it's a very comprehensive martial art and you pick it up quickly
Anonymous at Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:29:56 UTC No. 128872
>>128871
anything russians do you should do the opposite
Anonymous at Mon, 12 Dec 2022 20:37:06 UTC No. 128877
>>128425
Most of the applicable parts of judo are part of wrestling, and wrestling practices those bits more as a focus.
Therefor wrestling is more applicable. If we want to go into the expanded catalogue of techniques both are much the same, but in terms of focus, wrestling by its nature of a primarily non-cloth-reliant system is more fitting.
Anonymous at Mon, 12 Dec 2022 20:59:37 UTC No. 128887
Its pretty cool. Hard on the back. I had to quit after I tore my acl the second time. There arent that many schools in the US though.
Wrestling is cool, hard to find a way to train as an adult.
Anonymous at Mon, 12 Dec 2022 22:55:25 UTC No. 128894
>>128871
Combat sambo is pretty amazing. Same with Kudo. They basically combine striking and grappling while wearing headgear and a gi (well a kurtka in Sambo's case).
Anonymous at Tue, 13 Dec 2022 02:22:19 UTC No. 128923
>>128871
if you can find it. judo and bjj is commercially much more accessible than any other grappling art.
>>128877
>armbars
>shoulder locks
>guard and sweeps
>somehow these are wrestling
yeah no, its more accurate to say that the most applicable parts of judo is bjj, because bjj is actually derived from judo and nobody contests its efficacy. the most applicable parts of judo are hip throws and ground submission, things you will actually see in an mma match.