Anonymous at Sat, 18 Mar 2023 06:14:37 UTC No. 139362

>>139354
What type of knife fighting? Hema as a lot of stuff for daggers, the Japanese also have some of this stuff, but jabbing something sharp through gaps in armor doesn't mean you'll be able to deal with a guy shanking you. Likewise knife fencing was once very common, but I haven't seen many detailed manuals on the subject, and again it wont prepare you much for a sudden attack and probably not very well for jamming a sharp thing into gaps of armor while someone is trying to do the same to you.

I know a lot of philipino and southeast Asian arts deal with knives, the Japanese have a sport budo called Tankendo based on bayonet fighting, and there are plenty of knife "self defense" systems, and even more people criticizing their effectiveness. A lot of knife people outright say there is no unarmed defense against someone who knows what they are doing.

Anonymous at Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:31:43 UTC No. 139369

>>139354
>I'm surprised it isn't more common especially in HEMA.
Because you'd also need a solid foundation in grappling for it to work, and this isn't really what most HEMA club are into, since if you want grappling and stuff, there's already tons of modern martial arts and combat sports. But it indeed was a large part of the old arts and you'll find tons of references in the manuals, especially from the early centuries (15-16th). Most of the big names have some dagger stuff, Fiore, Marozzo, Meyer, Kal, etc.

There are still traditionnal italian knife fighting lineages going around admittedly.

The problem is the knife "fighting" bit. Nowadays, having two people armed with knives squaring off is a bit of an oddity, this is not the typical context for knife encounters, hence why the modern methods aren't really about knife v knife, unlike the HEMA sources where possession of a long knife wasn't all that uncommon.

Anonymous at Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:28:37 UTC No. 139376

>>139354
Oh boy...
There's a political dimension to it, basically governments have practically outlawed certain martial arts after WW2. US did it in the 70s because of gang violence and after '45 in Germany because secret Nazi super fighting skills. Soviets did it in eastern Germany starting in the 50s because they didn't want a rebellious population with access to effective fighting methods.
This was partly done via legislation, partly via manipulating culture, eg. eastern German Ossis to this day have a cultural taboo about kicking someone when he's down, Americans think only combat sports are effective etc.

As for the HEMA stuff, we only have a tiny part of martial arts back then, namely mostly the equivalent of McDojo stuff created to get money from the rising bourgeois class that liked to larp as noble knights. The frew tidbits we know about actual self defense and military systems paint a picture that is very different from the Thalhoffer/Liechtenauer/Fiore duelling/Fechtschul material.

Anonymous at Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:30:33 UTC No. 139377

>>139362
>A lot of knife people outright say there is no unarmed defense against someone who knows what they are doing.
That's a meme from WW2, where W.E. Fairbairn claimed there is no SECURE defense against a SKILLED knifeman.
OTOH, the Jiu Jitsu-style "ballkicking and joint locking" techniques have been in use for over 500 years in all parts of the world.

Anonymous at Sat, 18 Mar 2023 19:54:33 UTC No. 139408

>>139376
>the equivalent of McDojo stuff created to get money from the rising bourgeois class that liked to larp as noble knights.
Utter bullshit, I don't know where this shit sprang up, but it's fucking retarded.
For example, Fiore was a knight, fought several duels and trained others for theirs. Philippo Vadi was a very similar character.
Pietro Monte was one of the most highly regarded military men in his age, as a fighter and leader. Mentioned by Da Vinci.
Later masters do mostly write for bourgeois audiences, but that's because of two matters: The printing press, and the infantry revolution. Burghers were fighting men. While the likes of Joachim Meyer did dress things up in pseudo-knightly talk, the actual material is perfectly legit and does have a lineage that does somewhat justify it.

Anonymous at Sat, 18 Mar 2023 21:13:39 UTC No. 139417

>>139408
>>139376
When martial artists look for costumers to support their lifestyle its often easier to find city dwellers and middle class people than professional warriors. However its a myth that only the "warrier class" had military obligations and the need for fighting skills. Its also pretty hard to believe that Liechtenauer's methods would have survived for hundreds of years, and spread, if they were ineffective.

Anonymous at Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:51:02 UTC No. 139849

>>139408
Fiore trained people for duelling of honor, not war or self defense.
Monte's manual isn't used by anyone because frankly, it's not really that good. Also it's mostly about sports, not real fighting.

>the actual material is perfectly legit and does have a lineage that does somewhat justify it.
Complete and utter cope.We have military manuals from the renaissance and their stuff looks totally different from common HEMA fare.

Anonymous at Thu, 23 Mar 2023 08:26:57 UTC No. 139859

>>139849
>not war or self defense
Ah yes, getting stabbed while sitting on a bench, typical action in a duel of honor.

Anonymous at Thu, 23 Mar 2023 17:53:31 UTC No. 139909

>>139849
Military training drill and methods are always bare bones and simple compared to more involved martial arts. You have to get people to basic competency in a very short period of time, and individual skill is less important than group coordination and esprit de corps.

Anonymous at Fri, 24 Mar 2023 11:17:00 UTC No. 140035

>>139849
>Also it's mostly about sports, not real fighting.
It's good when people outright tell you that they haven't read a single bit of what they're talking about

Anonymous at Fri, 24 Mar 2023 12:25:44 UTC No. 140043

>>139849
>Fiore trained people for duelling of honor, not war or self defense.

Lol, lmao

Anonymous at Sun, 2 Apr 2023 21:55:02 UTC No. 141113

>>139354
>Which fighting systems incorporate or even focus on the use of knives?
boxing.
try it out actual boxing form while holding tiny blades sticking out from the pinky ends of your fists.

Anonymous at Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:54:04 UTC No. 142618

>>139354

Knife fighting systems are common, its just that most are bullshit, and the ones that are legit like a lot of HEMA ones dont have very many practicing it like >>139369 said. Part of the problem with "knife martial arts" is a lot dont actually spar because they either dont have proper sparring gear so they just do "live drills" or theyre just bullshit.

>>139369
Fiore knife fighting and general knife fighting sparring is pretty common in my area, there was a Fiore dagger tournament last year (albeit with very shitty rules).

My old HEMA teacher also regularly teaches knife fighting, especially the spanish gypsy stuff.

I do wish more HEMAists would do dagger stuff, ive been tempted to teach myself Marozzo's dagger and maybe run a class on it. I already have reformated half of his spadone stuff so its actually fucking readable.

Anonymous at Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:56:42 UTC No. 142619

>>139849
>Fiore trained people for duelling of honor, not war or self defense.

Bruh, he literally teaches you how to fucking kill people on horseback. Actually fucking read the Flower of Battle. A few of the armoured stuff is literally lifting the opponents visor up to stab them in the face with your sword. All the dagger and halfsword plays are just as lethal.

>>139909
>Military training drill and methods are always bare bones and simple compared to more involved martial arts.

See: military sabre vs dueling sabre books