🧵 My coaches thoughts on Judo
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 02:35:21 UTC No. 140677
So I am only a year or two into any form of martial arts training. I've been training BJJ, Muay Tai, Boxing, and MMA training in that time (mostly boxing and MMA) I asked the owner of the gym I go to (Ryan Jensen, UFC fighter if you;d like to look him up) about Judo, and he said that Judo was great for takedowns, maybe even the best. But he said once you get down to the ground you "need to have some sort of a plan" and that he would switch into Greco-Roman or BJJ once on the ground.
This board is full of Judo lovers, so I wanted to hear what a die hard Judoka would respond to that with
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 02:49:05 UTC No. 140678
Judo teaches plenty of stuff for ground work. BJJ specializes in it, but Judo is more than suffice.
You want best of both worlds? Japanese Jujutsu.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 02:49:57 UTC No. 140679
>>140677
Never seen a pure judoka land a take a takedown on anyone. They seem to kind of suck unless they crosstrain into something else
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 02:55:24 UTC No. 140680
Ground work? I can just get up. If I already threw the guy, it seems like I'm at the advantage to just stand up.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 04:44:27 UTC No. 140697
>>140677
Die hard judoka here, I don’t deny that bjj fags are the best when it comes to ground fighting because that’s their whole game. Judo, in general, give good scrambling and aggressive top fighting skills. While there is some defensive bottom skills taught, these aren’t the focus and in general you’re not going to have the time in competition to set up anything complex, so most competitive fighters just do their best to stall if their on their back or turtles rather than make an earnest effort to fight from there since they’ll just get a standup in 15 seconds anyways. Honestly, for those who criticize judo for “not doing enough groundwork” they’re really mistaken. It’s just that judo spends its time training groundwork primarily focused on breaking the turtle and getting out of stalled positions which isn’t as useful as something more technical if you’re going to spend a lot of time on the ground like in bjj or mma.
All that said, if you’re interested in judo give it a try. At this point in my life I don’t really give a rats ass about “self defense” or what’s MMA “proven” (even though judo is). I do judo because I like it. This board would be a lot better if people just did the things they liked instead of bickering about being the ultimate fighter.
I do resent the idea that judokas “don’t have a plan” when they go to the ground though. The plan is to establish top control or get a sub going quickly since that’s our only option.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 04:45:29 UTC No. 140698
>>140678
> You want best of both worlds? Japanese Jujutsu
Full retard. I’ve seen how Japanese jujutsu clubs train. We used to have a danzan ryu group that trained out of my judo club
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 09:18:39 UTC No. 140711
>>140677
judo teaches better ground work than BJJ, less submission oriented but more positional.
your teacher doesn't know the art
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 10:56:59 UTC No. 140715
>>140677
There is a plan. Kick the oponent while he's down after a takedown if it's so important to wound or kill him. Or just take him down and run away.
Even with UFC rules you have the chance to punch him while he's down provided your throw wasn't dogshit (meaning that the fighter has to be an actual skilled judoka, the kind that have no interest in fighting for the UFC).
I'm not going to repeat what others have said about judo's submissions.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 12:21:02 UTC No. 140721
>>140697
Judo might be good for short scrambles but wrestling is literally the best at training scrambles. Judo matches usually go in short bursts but high level wrestling can have really long and complex scrambles. Especially folkstyle wrestling which is more ground oriented compared to freestyle and grecko. I have alot of respect for Judo but a good wrestler will usually beat a good Judo guy on the ground. Wrestling does have its pitfalls. In video related, the wrestler had a great bridge, but that was literally his only way to get off his back, so he had to set it up and time it just to get out of mount. A good bjj guy would have choked this guys in a heartbeat. Kinda like the perpetual game of grappling rock paper scissors
https://youtu.be/cMLzQD6o4Ts
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:39:44 UTC No. 140724
>>140721
>Judo might be good for short scrambles but wrestling is literally the best at training scrambles
Ok? I didn’t say anything about wrestling but sure.
>Judo matches usually go in short bursts but high level wrestling can have really long and complex scrambles
Ok? I literally said the rules of judo competition encourage fast paced ground work because of the ruleset. That’s not a bad thing necessarily.
> have alot of respect for Judo but a good wrestler will usually beat a good Judo guy on the ground.
lol, in what way? Wrestlers have zero guard or submission game which is a major hole in their training. If you mean a wrestler would be better at putting a judokas shoulders on the ground first then maybe but I’ve never felt like any wrestler I’ve trained with had anything special going for them compared to any other kind of grappler.
>and muh bjj would’ve choked him!
Anon, I have no idea why you felt the need to come in here and sperg out about wrestling and BJJ when it isn’t even relevant to the thread. I said judo teaches good, fast scrambles, and you wander in to yell
>ACKTUALLY WRESTLING HAS BETTER SCROOMBLES
As if anyone was arguing about that.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 15:51:58 UTC No. 140732
>>140677
Most of the people on this board that sperg out about judo have never trained in their lives. What your gym owner said is not very controversial, despite the weird wording:
>judo great for takedowns
>wrestling or BJJ control on the ground
>IN AN MMA RULESET
Pretty standard operating procedure, that has been proven many times. No one is winning a fight with kesa gatame, because that's just not the ruleset. I can absolutely confirm that judo dudes can pin the fuck out of someone in a BJJ/grappling ruleset, but that doesn't hold as much value in MMA as wrestling or BJJ skills (leg riding, no-gi turtle control, scramble advantages, etc.)
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 16:48:53 UTC No. 140735
>>140724
>that wall of seething text
Lmao here's another JUDOKA getting btfo by a WRESTLER. A grecko wrestler at that!
https://youtu.be/GQkZeJnoKP0
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 16:50:47 UTC No. 140736
>>140677
Judo has a wrestling-esque top game and particularly good turtle attack system. Judoka don't really have a bottom game, even compared to wrestlers.
One of the main problems is clinch entries in the middle of the ring. Conversely, I think judo's array of trips and footsweeps are underutilized on the fence in pro MMA, and I think that area is where a judo specialist could shine in MMA.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:32:52 UTC No. 140738
>>140679
Have to agree
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 19:10:32 UTC No. 140741
>>140735
>seething
I’m calling you a retard for butting in with a bunch of irrelevant shit.
>but look this one wrestler beat a judoka! Judo btfo!
Wow it’s not like I can find the exact opposite scenario in under 10 seconds. Wrestling btfo!
https://youtu.be/9UwxDGGcEIc
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 20:37:22 UTC No. 140752
>>140736
>Conversely, I think judo's array of trips and footsweeps are underutilized on the fence in pro MMA, and I think that area is where a judo specialist could shine in MMA.
Absolutely. Judo's trips and foot sweeps have long been acknowledged as one of their best weapons. George Hackenschmidt even said that Western wrestlers should learn Japanese Jujutsu trip, leg sweeps, and chokes in his book, The Complete Science of Wrestling.
Honestly, there is no complete grappling art. You only have so much time and drills to develop stand-up and ground game. Judo was once the complete package because it was pressure-tested against other wrestling styles, challenge matches, and street fights that it's early pioneers embarked across the globe. It's up to modern judoka and other grapplers to compete developing judo. It's not supposed to be just a competitive sport, but also a martial science and a way of life as Kano envisioned. No-gi judo and judoka looking back at pre-Olympic newaza is a step in the right direction.
Dick waving between judoka beating wrestlers and wrestlers beating judoka is the Bullshido that traditional stylists do. We're grapplers; arguably the truest form of martial science because despite different expressions, they all boil down to the same thing; physical conditioning, leverage, and technique to grab hold of another participant who will actively resist with the same mindset. All grappling borrows and learns from one another when we train and/or compete against one another.
Anonymous at Thu, 30 Mar 2023 21:11:18 UTC No. 140764
>>140677
I think this board has one judo obsessed schizo tripfag. Other people normally like/appreciate it.
>>140711
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIRj
Here's what happens when a submission fighter competes against a position fighter. Ironically, the submission guy is a judoka.
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 00:39:11 UTC No. 140786
>>140742
Clearly he wasn't talking about judo matches son
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 00:49:52 UTC No. 140789
>>140732
OP here, I dont know if i was clear, but the conversation was in the context of UFC competitions
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 01:25:25 UTC No. 140796
>>140786
>I’ve never seen judoka do throws outside of judo
Is this unironically your cope? That you’re so fucking retarded you’ve never seen judoka do judo throws outside of judo?
https://youtu.be/0WjN8iuRk3o
>B-but they’re not PURE judoka
No one in mma since the 80s is “pure” anything but here
https://youtu.be/ss0H2ZHKFzM
In the first even mma match in American history gene lebell throws around Milo savage like a sack of shit then chokes him unconscious.
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 01:29:38 UTC No. 140797
>>140789
Same judo anon here, if you are training for mma then listen to your mma coach. Judo can and has been effectively utilized in mma but if you are a serious competitive fighter then your coach is creating a game plan for you, trying to fuck that up by utilizing stuff your coach isn’t super familiar with is a recipe for disaster.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen newbies go to comps trying some stupid shit they saw on YouTube instead of doing what we told them and then they lost as a result.
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 01:37:29 UTC No. 140799
>>140796
Seething. Judo without crosstraining is extremely mid at best simple as
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 02:07:39 UTC No. 140802
>>140764
If the majority of judofags aren't able to apply their skills outside of judo rules, how am I retarded? Literally not my problem. And yes I'm talking about the judo skillset not judo mixed with mma or whatever as i specifically said
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 02:26:20 UTC No. 140803
>>140799
> Judo without crosstraining is extremely mid at best simple as
As opposed to anything else without cross training?
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 03:02:58 UTC No. 140809
>>140802
> If the majority of judofags aren't able to apply their skills outside of judo rules, how am I retarded
You’re retarded because that’s not true at all and there’s a miriad of fighters, including well respected champions, that suggests otherwise you retarded retard.
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 08:25:01 UTC No. 140826
>>140677
I've done Judo, on top of MMA and BJJ. It's where I first learnt to break-fall. After ten minutes of this Japanese dude yelling at me, despite the mat taking all the force out anyway.
I'm no die hard Judoka, and I will admit it's not one I practiced as long as others, but I'd agree, roughly.
Judo emphasizes the throw aspect, the art of folding the persons clothes and putting them on the floor while they're still wearing them.
But unless the rules don't allow it, or they crack their head on the concrete, you do need to account for ground game, and the whole new 'stage' of fighting, with its different mechanics and different considerations.
Yes, I know Judo does account for ground stuff. But that's in the same way Karate has throws and takedowns, or how Taekwondo has punches and locks.
It's there, but it's comparatively sub-par, next to the alternative style which specializes in this stage of combat.
I've done about ten different martial arts over my life. Do what you enjoy but recognize the limitations. You're probably not beating a Taekwondo practitioner in the leg game. You're probably not beating a boxer at hands. If you're a Judoka, you're probably beating people in the throws department, but once you hit the ground, the wrestler is probably going to explode all over you.
That's why I like MMA. You're allowed to just switch shit up and decide "I wanna approach this sparring bout like a fencer" or "I'm just going to LARP as a rugby player today".
Anonymous at Fri, 31 Mar 2023 08:27:06 UTC No. 140828
>>140826
But this gives the hard Judoka another issue, in that by ONLY going Judo, and not branching out, you are limiting your flexibility.
I once sparred with a guy in MMA with a Judo background. First time, he put me in a standing wrist lock. Second time, I put him on the ground. Underhook, folded him backward, ran my feet until he stumbled.
Another time (when I was new to MMA) I sparred with a comp boxer. I decided to roll my wrist outside instead of inside, and change up how I punched, so I spent the next two minutes just ignoring his guard and bopping him in the face, until he got frustrated and dome'd me, because I'd never heard of a passive guard.
If you can get around the applicable field in which the other person can apply their art, you can ignore it. That's hard when the field is the art's specialty, or the rules constrain you so you can't do something different, but it's not when it's a smaller aspect, or the rules are less restrictive.
TL:DR Judo's a fine martial art, and a fine sport, but Ryan has a point. If you want to go with less rules, incorporate and branch out.
Judo will teach you (almost) everything you need to know. But this other place will do this other bit better.
Anonymous at Sat, 1 Apr 2023 02:02:58 UTC No. 140903
>>140826
>>140828
People will think I'm a troll or whatever but my personal experience fighting judo guys
>kick leg. They go limp after one or two kicks without laying a hand on me
>punch. They take it on the chin and go down every time because they have no defense or head movement.
Double leg take takedowns I understand but how are you guys getting closed in on with the stand up stuff
Anonymous at Sat, 1 Apr 2023 02:05:08 UTC No. 140904
>>140903
Clearly, you've never fought a true Judoka.
Anonymous at Sat, 1 Apr 2023 02:24:57 UTC No. 140909
>>140904
Kek
Anonymous at Sat, 1 Apr 2023 02:29:26 UTC No. 140910
>>140903
Judo guys really ought to do Muay Thai so they can figure out how to clinch against someone trying to punch and kick them without getting lit up on the way in.
Martial arts are more about the love of the training, sport, and community than what's theoretically the best in a no-holds barred death match. I think most martial artists enjoy most other martial arts. Judo has ultimately been my favorite, but I've had fun dabbling in BJJ, Muay Thai, and MMA - even tai chi.
Anonymous at Thu, 13 Apr 2023 19:22:07 UTC No. 142448
>>140910
>Judo guys really ought to do Muay Thai so they can figure out how to clinch against someone trying to punch and kick them without getting lit up on the way in.
I mained in MT but realizing the usefulness of trips and sweeps in the clinch is why I started cross training into judo.