Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 02:54:10 UTC No. 151081

>>151074
>Helio Gracie was taught Japanese Jiu-Jitsu but that he made changes to it so that it would work against bigger opponents
Meanwhile jigoro kano was 5'2" so even on its face that doesn't pass the sniff test

Worth mentioning originally the gracies wore blue belts
Also worth mentioning early on blue was the first belt in judo and white was second
Carlos and helio weren't even white belts, no wonder they couldnt make it work

At the end of the day they were liars and didnt actually contribute anything of substance to jujitsu itself. What they did do however is market it well and get people interested in learning it. But all their claims are fake, they were charlatans

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 03:56:03 UTC No. 151090

>>151081
I see. Those poor kids are learning Judo under a different name then? It can be really devastating and embarrassing for them when they learn the truth. Imagine training GJJ for a couple years and then start Judo, where you’ll say things like “oh in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu we do this, and this, and this one we call…” and the whole dojo looks at you like you’re retarded.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 04:09:54 UTC No. 151092

>>151090
https://www.youtube.com/live/mJIgjx6e9g4?feature=share&t=2519

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 04:25:10 UTC No. 151095

>>151092
Thanks. Very interesting. So the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community is aware what they practice is basically Judo katame-waza. It was also interesting to hear him say that there is no evidence of any Gracie having been Maeda’s student. It will be very sad if the Gracies turn out to be charlatans.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 04:42:36 UTC No. 151097

>>151095
>So the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community is aware what they practice is basically Judo katame-waza
no because bjj is a religion to some people and they will deny all of it even when the evidence is right in their faces
there are people in the world that truly believe helio gracie invented the concept of using leverage
you can see the way rener talks about the martial art his grandfather "invented"

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 04:45:20 UTC No. 151098

>>151074
>>151095
>It will be very sad if the Gracies turn out to be charlatans.

Everyone in BJJ already knows any gym that advertises itself as a Gracie gym is likely a McDojo, outside of maybe Roger Gracie and Carlson Gracie, although Carlson had his shitty practices as well. They market themselves to new people and don't let them spar/roll with each other or other gyms because they'll have their training styles exposed as ineffective compared to top gyms. It's like comparing IJF "roll on your stomach and wait for the referee to pull the other person off of you" Judo in the Olympics to real Kosen Judo.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 05:01:47 UTC No. 151101

>>151097
It's a bit hypocritical to put up Judo when not only is current Judo is a shadow of what Kano "created", but Kano's creation being just stealing techniques from other styles, just like the Gracies did. I've trained in at least 30 BJJ gyms and 20 Judo gyms as I travel a lot for work, and I've been to 2 BJJ gyms where they have a picture of some dead Gracie on the wall, whereas every Judo gym you have to bow to a dead manlet before and after starting every class. Deitising some manlet because he "invented grappling" in a country that had sumo wrestling for thousands of years is far cringier and more widespread than Gracie bullshit.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 05:09:33 UTC No. 151102

>>151095
My manga would never lie to me, anon.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 05:34:29 UTC No. 151106

>>151101
kano never claimed to invent anything, he just systematized it in order to 1 preserve it and 2 make it something civilians could learn
jujutsu was disappearing during the time of industrialization, his efforts were entirely focused around not letting it die with his generation
he achieved his goal in spreading it as far and wide as possible

the gracies on the other hand claim their family actually invented it and wanted to hoard it all for themselves, they wanted to be the gate keepers
they sued the machados, their own family because they were teaching jiujitsu but were on the womans side and didn't carry the gracie name
they're bad people only in it for the money

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 05:35:23 UTC No. 151107

>>151098
I dunno, IJF competitions always had a lot of newaza experts. It’s true that the rules don’t encourage it but to me IJF rules are more realistic from the self-defense point of view. The best judokas always seem to go for the ippon and great newaza will increase your chances of getting it.
https://youtu.be/MEQDy9DuDeU
>>151101
Kodokan systematically beat every other jujutsu style in Japan and that is what gave Kano his fame. Judo was kind of the MMA of Japan at the time and it proved to be the superior ryu in exhibition. Kano revolutionized martial arts in Japan, he was the first to use this type of belt ranking system used in most martial arts later. He did a lot of great things outside Judo as well. Even after being forced to prepare his students for the very common dojo storming by the rival jujutsu ryu, he still preserved the old ryu kata in Judo, rather than holding a grudge. It’s very difficult to find anything bad in Kano’s character.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 06:12:31 UTC No. 151110

>>151106
>>151107
Did Kano note down what styles and teachers he learnt the "systemised" techniques from? I imagine he did, but that never gets taught in any of the classes I've done in over 7 years of Judo. Instead, even with my Shodan test, it was just "do this as Kano intended" when I asked why we do techniques a certain way. Maybe my NGB is just run incorrectly, but I don't see how "this technique is correct as Kano does it" without giving credit to anyone else is different to the Gracies grift.

And I'm not against Kano as a person. I'm sure he did note down where they came from, as he seemed to want to preserve it, but the way he's looked at now by the people running Judo as God is cringey. I don't need to bow to a picture of him every day, yet it's forced in every gym I've been to like it's a picture of Jesus in a church. Tell his story sure, but it feels like walking into a cult with a lot of the more traditional gyms.

Also the self-defence and newaza is only offensive-related. My issue is the IJF basically de-emphasises all defensive newaza except roll onto your stomach. In a self-defence situation if someone tackles you from behind, I've never been taught how to get up to standing in a Judo class. Even in my guard, there's a few sweeps we're taught, but usually it was just "hold on until the referee resets it". Judo is only good in self-defense if it's a 1 on 1 situation where you both start facing each other.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 06:27:24 UTC No. 151111

>gets kimura'd by a guy named kimura
How did he not see that coming?

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:12:17 UTC No. 151141

>>151074
Only boomers and Brazilians care about the Gracies. Their importance is in their influence on the popularity of grappling.
Unfortunately their great marketing can also get the attention of white belts.

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Jun 2023 16:58:13 UTC No. 151156

>>151111
https://youtu.be/eUkLb7cDV-Y

Anonymous at Wed, 14 Jun 2023 01:34:29 UTC No. 151238

>>151110
In what country is your dojo? Every black belt I’ve met have been very good in katame-waza, both offensive and defensive. Not experts, but good. I applaud that because katame-waza is part of Judo and you should know at least basics of it at the shodan level. But you should also know the history. Not knowing much about Kano or the jujutsu ryu he was trained in, that doesn’t give a good impression to me. The fact that you was never told seems plausible, but this is also true in Karate often, most senseis know the “bloodline” of their own sensei, but not much else. Luckily there are books written by experts, but to expect every shodan to read these books is unrealistic. But hey, if it’s not required…
If you want my advice, Judo is a typical Japanese martial art with plenty of Chinese influence, which means: if you want to learn you must seek the information from the masters, they’re not going to come to you. In BJJ guess it’s the opposite because it’s a business, they want to sell it to you. This is also the reason why Judo dojo-kun may require bowing to a picture, because this is a Japanese and Chinese tradition and it does have religious roots, mainly buddhism and shinto. It’s actually kinda funny you mentioned Jesus and church but couldn’t quite connect the dots all the way. A little more thought into it and you would have figured it out yourself. I don’t see a problem with bowing to Kano, without him jujutsu would have likely perished and there would’t be Judo, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu nor modern MMA.
I’ll add this, official Kodokan techniques are kind of like Karate kata, the blueprints or a skeleton, the foundation you start building on. Judo is just like any other Japanese/Chinese martial art in that sense, the foundation is supposed to help you build your own style. Your sensei told you to do it like Kano, because you were at shodan level which literally means “beginning level”.

Anonymous at Wed, 14 Jun 2023 01:49:12 UTC No. 151239

>>151110
Maybe I just don’t understand what you mean by defensive newaza but pic related is from this old Kodokan video:
https://youtu.be/cFMgFnvHZMs
Technically the guard is a defensive position but even in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu it’s used offensively, just like in this Kodokan video. I fail to understand what you mean by tackle from behind? You mean like a bear hug or defending hadaka-jime or okuri-eri-jime? You haven’t been taught defenses to these attacks and you’re shodan?