🧵 Untitled Thread
Anonymous at Sat, 16 Sep 2023 14:45:09 UTC No. 167040
Are dutch and japanese kickboxing the same, except japanese kickboxers tend to have karate background?
Anonymous at Sat, 16 Sep 2023 16:10:06 UTC No. 167060
The thing that happened to BJJ and catch wrestling, where they merged into one homogenous submission grappling "art," is also happening to striking. Kickboxing and muay thai are synonymous outside of Thailand. Karate has had minimal influence and guys with karate backgrounds stick out like a sore thumb even in Japan. It's becoming all the same shit.
Anonymous at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 00:35:40 UTC No. 167344
>>167060
jap kickboxers really throw jump spin back kick and spin hook kick for breakfast tho. Kyokushin background is still common
Anonymous at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 00:54:18 UTC No. 167347
>>167040
IIRC, Japanese kickboxing originated as a hybrid of Western boxing and karate, inspired by competition with Muay Thai.
Dutch kickboxing originated with Dutch guys fighting and training in Japan, bringing Japanese kickboxing back home, and putting their own unique spin on it.
And American kickboxing originated when a bunch of points karate guys said "lol but what if we did this for real".
I may be mistaken. Please, some advanced level martial arts historian correct me if I'm wrong.
In the present day, I'm not sure how "distinctive" the different schools are. AFAIK, American kickboxers tend to compete only in the US under a bevy of different organizations (think pre-UFC Wonderboy). Dutch kickboxing is known for having somewhat better boxing than Japanese or Thai kickboxing, better clinch work and knees than Japanese kickboxing, and emphasis on extremely heavy kicks.
Anonymous at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 01:03:33 UTC No. 167348
>>167060
>Kickboxing and muay thai are synonymous outside of Thailand
Not true. In the US, kickboxing is still that weird karate style. You usually have to distinguish it as K1 rules kickboxing
Anonymous at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 01:34:08 UTC No. 167352
>>167347
dutch guys just shell up get in range, throw a 3 4 piece combo and end with low kick lol.
Jap kickboxers got crispy nice hands, they are the embodiment of the K1 rules, very technically sound. They are the most entertaining to watch too
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:59:44 UTC No. 168176
>>167347
>IIRC, Japanese kickboxing originated as a hybrid of Western boxing and karate, inspired by competition with Muay Thai.
Yes, but even the early roots of Japanese Kickboxing incorporated techniques and training methods from Muay Thai. Tatsuo Yamada brought in a Nak Muay his son to spar with; the first karate school to do so. Kenji Kurosaki, the founder of Mejiro Gym trained in Thailand for a bit as well as brought over Muay coaches to Japan.
The karate/kenpo flavor is definitely there (especially in spinning heel kicks and front kicks (they're not the same as teeps) or chaining together attacks) but there was also headbutts and throws/trips/takedowns. So in its early days of competition, Japanese Kickboxing was basically gloved Lethwei + Sanda. They eventually took away the headbutts and fought much closer to Muay Thai except Japanese scoring criteria is more objective: punch, kick, elbow, and knee are all scored equally.
>Dutch kickboxing originated with Dutch guys fighting and training in Japan, bringing Japanese kickboxing back home, and putting their own unique spin on it.
This is true for the Dutch branch of Mejiro Gym when Jan Plas returned. Thom Harinck took a more direct approach. He trained in Kyokushin too (as well as boxing and savate) and then got exposed to pure Muay Thai.
>Dutch kickboxing is known for having somewhat better boxing than Japanese or Thai kickboxing, better clinch work and knees than Japanese kickboxing, and emphasis on extremely heavy kicks.
Japanese Kickboxing always embraced clinching & neck-wrestling with knees (and elbows) since Day 1 in 1966. The Japanese compete in Thailand and under full MT rules than any other foreigners. People mistake K-1 rules as the norm in Japan.
>>167352
>dutch guys just shell up get in range, throw a 3 4 piece combo and end with low kick lol.
This is true to some extent, but more gyms are experimenting and refining themselves nowadays thanks to more exposure to MT competition.
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 19:18:05 UTC No. 168178
>>167348
Is US Kickboxing (or Full-Contact Karate with shiny pants) even that relevant anymore? The PKA is dead and the WKA (it was originally called the World Karate Association then rebranded itself the World Kickboxing & Karate Association) largely does low-kick and modified MT bouts.
Even though it was long before my time, I've seen quite a bit of 70's, 80's, and 90's footage of US FC Karate and liked some of the kicks. I generally like to see fighters who can do a mix of these techniques in a match:
- Teeps, Trips/Dumps/Sweeps, clinching, all kinds of elbows and knees from Nak Muays
- Crisp boxing combos that Japanese Kickboxers do in conjunction with pin-point kicks
- Dutch-style heavy hands that finish off with a low kick, roundhouse, or scissor knees
- Sanda side kick stamps and kick catch throws
- Savate toe kicks
- US FC Karate above-the-wait kicks (particularly spinning back kicks, hook kicks, and axe kicks)
- Even Capoeira cartwheel and scorpion kicks
This would be the most ideal form of stand-up fighting. Action-packed and full of every facet of attack
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:24:25 UTC No. 168211
>>167040
Dutch Kickboxing is more like Myau Thai for hardcore masochists.
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:34:03 UTC No. 168215
>>168211
>for hardcore masochist
Why?
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:40:49 UTC No. 168217
>>168215
Dutch kb is infamous for no pads, no holding back, and not being able to utter the phrase "light training" in any language. It's great for an experience, but there's a reason no one does that much.
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:41:01 UTC No. 168218
>>168215
The way their schools operate just look into it, lmao.
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:44:47 UTC No. 168220
>>168217
That's because the Dutch can't spend hours each day doing pad work and drills like Thais in training camps can. Most Dutch kickboxers have to work a job while putting in as much gym time; hence they focus on fundamentals, conditioning, and hard sparring to make-up for their lack of experience and ring time.
Anonymous at Fri, 22 Sep 2023 23:49:19 UTC No. 168224
>>168220
>can't spend hours
>putting in as much gym time
Dutch CTE on full display
Anonymous at Sat, 23 Sep 2023 00:02:59 UTC No. 168227
>>168224
Well yeah. Mike's Gym is the best example of how wrong this is.
Lucien Carbin and the way he trains his stable is what Dutch Kickboxers should be. Very slick combos and feints as well as devoting time for clinchwork. He has them spar, but only after devoting time on pads and bags.
Anonymous at Mon, 2 Oct 2023 04:15:00 UTC No. 170145
When will ONE put Hiroki Akimoto on a card. He’s going to win the belt stripped from petchtanong.
Also maybe the Belarusians are onto something, they are producing terrific kickboxers.
Moroccans, Azerbaijanis, Armenians all go to Netherlands with a dream to become kickboxers or what
Anonymous at Mon, 2 Oct 2023 07:03:22 UTC No. 170164
>>170145
>Also maybe the Belarusians are onto something, they are producing terrific kickboxers
Name few pls (I'm from Belarus, want to check out their coaches and clubs)
Anonymous at Mon, 2 Oct 2023 16:48:23 UTC No. 170212
>>168176
>>168178
Very cool, thank you for the additional historical and technical context. Your description of ideal kickboxing sounds beautiful, I hope we get to see it one day.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Oct 2023 13:47:26 UTC No. 170438
>>170164
Vanderyeva and Chinga Allazov
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Oct 2023 13:56:26 UTC No. 170439
>>170289
Lmao but on a serious note Kyokushin drills those kicks for power and follow through in a full contact environment, and they don't get much more fancier than that. Of my years with Tkd the spin hook kick is trained quite differently to connect from unlikely angles for either aesthetics or competition(which i maintain the rules are dumb).
So at least the spin hook kick in tkd is different biomechanically and generates less force from the turn than in kyokushin. When I transitioned to kickboxing I had to learn it again.
The back kick and jump back kick is similar enough and honestly i prefer the tkd way.
Tkd kicks that get shit on are those with excessive windup for show mostly
Anonymous at Mon, 9 Oct 2023 06:02:13 UTC No. 171243
>>170439
Joe Rogan explained that old tkd focused more on power
Anonymous at Wed, 11 Oct 2023 04:27:39 UTC No. 171513
>>171243
I do not disparage TKD totally. Only the tornado, spin hook kick and (jump) spin hook kick matter in this sport of kickboxing. I only criticised the spin hook kick that you learn from modern tkd, the other two is excellent in TKD.
Even if in the olden days TKD was better, what matters now is what you can learn NOW from modern schools