Anonymous at Sat, 21 Oct 2023 22:44:10 UTC No. 172923

>>172913
Ramsey is actually really good with being open to Gong Fu practitioners. He has a Bagua student and a Wing Chun one, he has given both their own videos to explain their style.

Ramsey also has two separate videos dedicated to taiji where he even covers a story about a practitioner wrist locking him.

Give Ramsey some credit.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 00:29:11 UTC No. 172931

>>172923
Those are the examples I referred to in my post. With all due respect to his students they are HIS STUDENTS and are a drop in the bucket. The voice he gives to them is nothing but a murmur. What about their teachers? Or teachers of other lineages? What do they have to say? Does Ramsey have questions for them?

The Tai Chi guy was his "master" who nobody but him knows about, and he said himself that he refuses to look for any other teachers because "none are better than [his master]". Which is ridiculous considering the diversity of the Tai Chi community, especially in China.

He does not want to change or even challenge his perspective. He does not want to learn much more about "neigong" beyond a wikipedia article. He is doing what kung fu nerds are criticized for, which is being willfully ignorant.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 01:26:27 UTC No. 172934

>>172931
What do you want from him? One of the best things about Ramsey is his intellectual honesty. He has clearly stated many times that he is a combat sports coach. His expertise is in coaching combat sports. He doesn't really train or study historical/cultural martial arts. He adamantly insists he is not a self defense expert.

He only really addresses "traditional" martial arts when they intersect with combat sports, such as when a kung fu guy takes an MMA fight. And then he says, "well duh, the guy who was better prepared won". He talks about his taiji experience because it relates to his knowledge of wrestling.

If traditional CMA guys want to get together and talk, great, what does that have to do with an MMA coach?

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 02:26:44 UTC No. 172938

>>172934
Sure, he's a great combat sports coach. But he's pretty happy to say that "CMA x is just such and such" despite having no training in that art. I don't recall him ever saying that those claims are only in the context of his combat sports coaching. He is quite adamant that Tai Chi is "just basic wrestling" and the literal translation "Highest Form of Unarmed Combat" (which is flat out wrong) means that Tai Chi should be reverse engineered to be more applicable in combat sports. That is, he does NOT need to train the respective art's methods to understand it and its nuances, and his interpretation of the NAME justifies that. And when people say he's wrong... "do you speak Chinese like me?"

Like I get it. Do what works in combat sports. Have fun being influenced by different arts. But don't act like that's how those arts were MEANT to be practiced. That's practically what he says and it's not intellectually honest. Same thing with "neigong". "Oh, it's like when you do warm ups and cool downs at the gym, and when you think just a little more about breathing". Dear lord.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought MMA was about bringing these arts to the ring, plain and simple. You get guys trained in Karate bringing it in, BJJ, Muay Thai etc. Those arts are done faithfully as possible, and when they're modified, it's sometimes done by someone actually trained in the art. That means those guys actually know how to do it "traditionally" and how to "evolve" it. Dewey is not doing that with arts like Tai Chi, I don't care how much he copies the movements of his old next door neighbor and adapts them to his coaching.

He is analyzing those arts from a distance in terms of the arts he has practiced, rather than their own terms.

Look at Rokas. He TRAINED in Aikido before trying to make it work by modifications gleaned by insights from his training in BJJ, Boxing, MMA etc. He is talking from his own experience in his respective arts. That is more intellectually honest IMO.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 02:28:13 UTC No. 172939

>>172931
In TMA of Chinaland its disrespectful to go around master hopping, its more of family business thing than in Bushido schools where its more of an organization thing.

You are expected to show loyalty to your master unless by chance you have to move elsewhere where your master isn't around, then you'll refer that you learned from such and such back at home or previous place when you enter a new community.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 02:35:46 UTC No. 172941

>>172938
> More honest.
> Doesn't really matter when you are TRAINING others to be better at a SPECIFIC SPORT.

again you are just being dumb for being dumb apples and oranges, muh white man bad syndrome.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 02:58:32 UTC No. 172943

>>172941
>He's intellectually honest
>Actually nevermind honesty doesn't matter...

Uh okay.

Priorities I guess? Like I said, it's all good if you want to be influenced by other arts in your sport. But people are waiting to see "kung fu" actually "work" in the ring. And so far all we have is people saying "this is what kung fu should look like in the ring" despite not actually training "kung fu" arts.

I didn't bring up "white man bad" but it's definitely a good example of a white guy misappropriating something he doesn't understand and distorting it. Isn't Shanghai one of the most colonizer-influenced places in China?

>>172939
I think that kind of varies. There are quite a few CMA guys who train combat sports to a greater or lesser degree. Some of their teachers apparently don't mind. Case in point, Byron Jacobs. His quite traditional teacher is all about evolution. TMAs aren't as anti-progress as these influencers want people to think.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 03:02:35 UTC No. 172944

>>172943
> twisting words.

you must be a chinese person to lie that much about someone else based on misunderstandings what I said.

he's honest enough to a degree of functionality on what matters to his sport and that's good enough as an MMA coach for him in his field where he's training variety of TMA types to fight better in a mixed contest, he's not "sola best system!" or doing some tier mental gymnastics like Rokas, he's trying to get his students to beat up other students using what they already know.

maybe you don't get his point of view? he's a pragmatic thinker who wants to see and utilize the old arts in that new setting as best as he can through the other students so they will function better, he's not trying to categorize them and say these things don't work because x or y is better, he doesn't care about that fact and he probably agrees that learning TMA alone is pointless for self-defense, just roll up in other forms of mixed combat and you get better utility out of them especially if they involve sparring.

basically his method of teaching is TMA bunkai to MMA cage fights.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 03:16:58 UTC No. 172945

>>172944
also, originally kung fu competitions were most likely freestyle/catch all wrestling china style even Sanshou/Sanda has elements of it, Sanda used to allow double leg takedowns prior to the rules changes because they couldn't do shit about them if I remember hearing right.

oldest and most noble martial art shared across all cultures is usually considered a form of wrestling because it teaches how to win a fight without beating the other guy into a bloody mess or cutting them open.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 03:21:07 UTC No. 172946

>>172943
also the thing where I mentioned the master-student relationship is when it comes to practicing that sort of martial art, not unrelated arts or combat sports.

back in the day when it used to happen if you "dojo stormed" a school successfully taking down the master the people were often more keen on leaving the school and joining yours.

it was a dog eat dog world in the hey days.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 03:47:48 UTC No. 172947

>>172946
Yeah, well times have changed. A number of CMA "masters" and disciples and whatever aren't pleased that the culture is stagnating or declining due to a lack of actual combat training and evolution.

Of course not much good is being done about it. But the activity we DO see is that while some of these practitioner-influencers are intermingling with other styles and trying to advance their knowledge as well as that of others, the Western MA influencers are profiting off of misinformation and the idea that CMA can't be saved or made applicable without the input of westernized arts.

For example pretty much every mention of Xu Xiaodong is along the lines of him being the MMA guy who's out to prove Kung Fu is bullshit. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest he has ties to the TMA community and there are those in the TMA community who train or have trained with him. It changes the narrative almost completely.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 04:25:12 UTC No. 172952

>>172947
>Western MA influencers are profiting off of misinformation
In what way? I'm still not comprehending your complaint with Western content creators, OP. The YouTube guys I follow either focus on their area of expertise, or their content is largely about going around to different teachers and trying new stuff. What do you want from them?

As an aside, I've often suspected there's more to the Xu Xiaodong story than Westerners such as myself generally understand. How is he "offensive" to Chinese culture, when China already has sanda, shuai jiao, and other combat sports, as well as famous champions in the UFC, ONE, etc?

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 04:34:05 UTC No. 172953

>>172952
>Xu Xiaodong

there's not really much other than him just dojo storming TMA fakes and teachers and china propagandists getting pissed at the fact that he was humiliating chinese propagandists and state assets, china hates losing cultural battles more than anything, that's why they allowed the boxing match happen where the china guy won by wrestling take down rather than actual boxing moves.

its about humiliating your opponent really more than anything to the standard communist, he's clearly not a state sponsored mob guy or anything like that, they just hate his guts going against taboos in chinese culture.

even though I find most modern mainalnd communist chinese to be cowardly dogs and so on, he's one man that I can say honestly deserves an exemption from the shit list, he fought, he has proved his salt, he took heat from the government when its not cool to do so.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 04:42:12 UTC No. 172954

>>172953
also Communist China has this concept about Losing Face, when you go back on your own word or lose you lose "Face" think of it like hard line "reputation."

"you better not show your face around here if you lose." type of deal.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 06:31:52 UTC No. 172960

>>172952
>Their own field of expertise
Well, Dewey sure talks a lot about IMA and neigong despite having no expertise in either
>Different teachers trying new stuff
Mentioned in the OP. Dewey does very little, others do some but it's making quite a slow start. Tons of guys out there practicing CMA in a way that's attempting to be practical but they're not acknowledged at all. Some are quite skilled in CMA and stuff like BJJ e.g. Tim Cartmell. Others are more skilled in CMA with maybe less combat sports experience but their stuff is interesting enough to warrant investigation, e.g. Xu Shi Xi or his students. But what we get is Charlatans like Shi Heng Yi. Granted Rokas did interview a Bagua practitioner but it was incredibly surface level stuff.

They're profiting off of it with the whole youtube influencer economy. It's a business. They have made it part of their livelihood. The Self Defense Championship? What a gig.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 09:15:07 UTC No. 172966

>>172960
> muh Charlatan.
> health focused QiGong/Shaolin Kung Fu type of guy
> charlatan.

you are missing the point, he doesn't promise any supernatural powers or anything just promoting health and prosperity through martial arts cultivation type of deal, which come in hand in hand, cultivation is just stockpiling of something and harvesting the rewards, bodybuilders are cultivating their bodies as an example phrase.

there's a dangerous realm of fictional expectations inside your mind my man, sure some of his shit is based on religious background in shaolin buddhism, learn to separate fiction from reality, it will get you a long way.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 13:32:29 UTC No. 172981

>>172960
All I'm getting from this is that you're butthurt that certain youtubers are more popular/successful than others.

If CMA wants validation from the combat sports community, they can come compete. If they shun combat sports and don't want to compete, fine. Cultural/historical martial arts are fine.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 13:36:50 UTC No. 172982

>>172966
NTA but I think he's labelling him a charlatan because his Qigong and modern 'Shaolin' stuff has very limited traceable legitimacy; especially considering that 'Shaolin Kung Fu' nowadays is commercialised performative goyslop, covered with a haphazard smattering of Chan Buddhism whenever anyone asks them to prove their effectiveness under any degree of pressure.

Hell, they perform exercises like the Tendon-Changing Classic or the Eight Section Brocades while dressed in Buddhist robes and call it Shaolin; when the contents of their original manuscripts clearly describe Taoist Daoyin exercises, and likely only claimed to be Shaolin for ancient Chinese equivalent of clickbait. This wasn't at all uncommon back in the day; the oldest manual for Northern Mantis is often titled Shaolin, but clearly names a Taoist priest as its author, and references Taoist concepts over and over in its contents.

Sure, Shi Heng Yi might be pretty benign as far as charlatans go, since he doesn't promise unrealistic fighting abilities; but it doesn't change the fact that 90% of what he sells is bullshit in a purely factual sense. Yes, Dewey isn't obligated to interview better CMA practitioners on his platform as that Anon seems to believe; but I definitely empathise with his frustration. It is kind of painful that Fight Commentary Breakdowns is the closest thing Qi La La has to a platform to the West.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 14:53:57 UTC No. 172990

>>172982
> Taoist.

and of which Tendon-Changing Classic is basically a Taoist form of early Kung Fu, its meant to loosen up the joints and muscles if you are stiff or get stuck up a lot and often in postures like the "monks" do.

Shaolin monks started to add on exercises and training to make their monks last longer as they didn't just want to make them collapse from lack of exercise during meditation sessions kek.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 15:10:18 UTC No. 172991

>>172990
>Shaolin monks started to add on exercises and training to make their monks last longer as they didn't just want to make them collapse from lack of exercise during meditation sessions
Source? I've never seen any reliable period sources on Shaolin stuff say this. Granted there aren't many, but that's just more reason for me to be skeptical of modern Shaolin schtick.

Anonymous at Sun, 22 Oct 2023 15:51:37 UTC No. 172994

>>172982
Exactly. Shi Heng Yi ISN'T actually a Shaolin monk and his philosophy and whatnot is just repackaged self help baloney in Buddhist robes. Which gets money. I'm sure some people find it helpful but he is a businessman plain and simple, profiting off people's unmet spiritual needs and fantasies.

>>172966
Pretty much your whole post is exactly why MMA influencers are doing a disservice to CMA if not MA in general. You are literally falling for the worst Disney-esque aspects of CMA. These influencers are happy to perpetuate the image that CMA is an outdated cultural tourist-attracting relic. Maybe it'll help them get more money from Shi Heng Yi or his business partner Jiang Yu Shan.

Anonymous at Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:40:53 UTC No. 173370

>>172982
>Fight Commentary Breakdowns
>"X" style of Kung Fu Real, tested
>it's either Sanda or a standard Kickboxing/mma setup with none of that style of Kung-fu actually demonstrated
>"if you dont see that style shining through you are BLIND. BLIND I SAY"
I hate this cuck

Anonymous at Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:04:25 UTC No. 173382

>>172994
you don't need to be a monk to practice Shaolin arts or Shaolin Buddhism as long as you have an approval from Shaolin and follow the principles.

Anonymous at Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:13:45 UTC No. 173420

>>173382
>Approval from Shaolin
Ah yes, the Shaolin that only had 14 monks left even before the cultural revolution, and currently exists as a reconstructed freak show for cultural tourism helmed by a institutionally corrupt atheist state with a track record of censoring religion; I'm sure they're an authentic, reliable authority on what Chan Buddhism and their principles are.

I know you're replying to the OOP but read my last post. Stop drinking the state-sponsored kool-aid and realise that none of it is historical nor authentic as far as Chinese martial arts go, ie what we wish got more attention in the West.

Anonymous at Tue, 31 Oct 2023 16:14:58 UTC No. 173999

The styles can make themselves non-dismissable by not being miserable pieces of shit. The best CMA looks like shitty MMA striking. Fight me.

Anonymous at Wed, 1 Nov 2023 12:47:39 UTC No. 174113

>>172938
MMA has only ever been about the money. Remember, it's a sport that uses the term "martial arts" in the name. It isn't a martial art itself. Even most pro-fighters intentionally refuse the moniker of martial artist, because they understand they're just brawlers.

Anonymous at Wed, 1 Nov 2023 12:56:47 UTC No. 174114

>>173420
Dude, chan buddhism diverged, found its way to Japan, became Zen. This is all easily confirmed. Zen & chan are practically identical so it's safe to assume they've left it alone for the most part. China isn't gonna fuck with a good thing like that. Shaolin & buddhism are just tourist draws, beyond that they don't give a shit anymore.