Anonymous at Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:17:41 UTC No. 205004

To start off the thread I have a question for all kendoka.
Do you think that judges/point scoring is starting to be detrimental to kendo overall?
The reason why I ask this is because many times when talking to my sensei and other senior students the reason they give me to not pursue techniques/guards like nitō or the left kote strike is that many times the judges won’t give you a point because they don’t know how to judge it.
I also read that many waza aren’t used anymore because of this same reason.
Related to this.
To answer an anon from two threads ago, I did try to use hasso/inno no kamae in jigeiko, my conclusions so far is that its effective but restrictive, it’s a good gateway for unconventional attacks because many techniques can be done by advancing at a 45 degree angle instead of straight forward, katate men and do also come out very well but are more difficult to control than normal due to the increased force that the right arm can give.

Anonymous at Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:04:13 UTC No. 205127

Currently doing old school Shotokan karate for empty hands and something else for weapons, but my kouhai is interested in Jap swordsmanship. Trying to help him out on it and possibly visit the dojos to see stuff. There's a Katori Shinto-ryu and a Shinkendo dojo here in our region (both dojos are in different cities). What do you recommend for a beginner in Jap swordsmanship? Already visited the Katori Shinto-ryu dojo and found it interesting, completely alien to our local swordsmanship. A bit expensive tho.

Anonymous at Fri, 26 Jul 2024 01:45:37 UTC No. 205129

>>205127
There are several branches of KSR,Some considered illegitimate some not (That is a very complicated political conversation) and it can vary in quality from instructor to instructor, However in general, it would interest me a lot more.. Shinkendo, which I only know a little about, is largely based off Nakamura ryu, which comes from the Japanese imperial military style of swordsmanship, which was very much a return to basics style. KSR on the other hand, is one of the most comprehensive and oldest styles, and also covers other weapons.

Anonymous at Fri, 26 Jul 2024 03:18:35 UTC No. 205135

>>205129
>Some considered illegitimate some not
Looks like I need to look into this. Yeah, maybe I'll do more research on the Katori Shinto-ryu branch we have here, then go to the Shinkendo dojo to check it out. Does Shinkendo do sparring though? I know Katori doesn't since I asked.

Anonymous at Fri, 26 Jul 2024 04:47:54 UTC No. 205140

>>205135
>Looks like I need to look into this.
Its real complicated. I will try to explain it as best I can. The mainline is headed by a hereditary headmaster, and if a teacher doesn't have a relation with him, they aren't considered legit. To make matters more complicated, there is another line, called the Noda-ha, or Date that has been independent since the Edo period, so that rule does not apply to them. That does not necessarily reflect the teaching quality however, only what their standing is according to the hereditary "rights holder" and those associated with him.
>Does Shinkendo do sparring though?
I cannot say for sure, but what I have read indicates its not a big part of their curriculum. Sparring isn't a standard part of many kenjutsu systems anyway, I wouldn't necessarily take that as proof of quality, but if your friend likes free sparring he might want to look elsewhere.

Anonymous at Mon, 29 Jul 2024 20:57:14 UTC No. 205588

>kicked from kendo after 3 weeks because I used to do fencing before, so thrusts are second nature to me but in Kendo it's a super risky ultra death move so I'm "disrespecting the sensei's form" every time I throw one
I caught one of the senior instructors with the thrust, shouted tsuki and everything, got a clean thrust and the flag raise, but he immediately ripped his mask off started chewing me and the flag guy out for allowing such blatant disrespect, before kicking me out in private talks an hour later. What the fuck man

Anonymous at Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:46:00 UTC No. 205599

>>205588
Sorry to hear that anon, you had a really shitty sensei if things went down this way.
Nobody can be excused such behavior teachers especially.

Anonymous at Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:10:43 UTC No. 205604

>>205135
>Yeah, maybe I'll do more research on the Katori Shinto-ryu branch we have here
I'm another anon but can you tell us to whom your dojo is linked?
Right now, the two offical branches are the Sugino dojo of Sugino Yukihiro and the one of Kyoso Shigetoshi ("Otake Shigetoshi").
But then if you care mostly about the level of instruction and not the legitimacy of the official lines, there are still dojo heralded by Otake Nobutoshi (Shigetoshi's older brother... it's a long story) which should be quite competent. And then there's Sugawara and Hatakeyama dojos which are another story but at least we sorta know where they stand. If it's non of these names... it's extra fishy. TSKSR is one of the most copied style because it was one of the first and most notorious available to westerners. But it also means that people tend to say where they come from when it's one of the big names. Some names are totally absent of some countries and very big in others.

Anonymous at Mon, 29 Jul 2024 23:39:48 UTC No. 205612

>>205604
There is also a Noda-ha line that is considered legit, but my understanding is that they are very small at present and don't publicize themselves much if at all.

Anonymous at Tue, 30 Jul 2024 12:01:51 UTC No. 205672

>>205604
I really don't know. I haven't looked into it that much aside from going to the dojo and asking around. Even asking if they still do the blood oath.

Anonymous at Wed, 31 Jul 2024 17:58:34 UTC No. 205857

>>205604
Can you elaborate on the Sugawara and Hatakeyama dojo?
It sounds interesting.

Anonymous at Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:25:13 UTC No. 205859

>>205857
Don't trust my sole word.
Hatakeyama Goro was a pupil and close partner of Sugino Yoshio. He helped teaching at Sugino's dojo for a time as shihan. When Sugino died, he went on to do his own thing rather than being strictly tied with Sugino's son (Yukihiro) organisation, he was active mostly in dojos that were administered by former pupils of himself and Sugino, back in the 80s and 90s. Style wise, he was of course very close to Sugino, though there are some differences in terms of presentation and rhythm. Dojo close to the "hatakeyama line" (no such things, but you get it) aren't officially connected to the soke for the most part. It doesn't say anything about their proefficiency. Goro Hatakeyama passed away in 2009.

Sugawara was a pupil of Otake Risuke who got the license to teach under the Shinbukan banner. Ultimately, he and Otake had a dispute, also his style was diverging more and more from Otake's so he was issued hamon (exclusion). He kept doing his thing though. In the later years, the wounds between him and Otake sorta healed (or so I heard), but then Otake Risuke died not too long ago...
Sugawara's "style" is noted for the emphasis on speed. A fair criticism is to say that this speed prevents proper applications of some techniques. It's close to the Otake presentation still.

All in all, these men were important collaborators and shihan of the main shihans (Sugino and Otake), thus there's naturally value in their teachings, but they aren't mainline per se.

Then there's the situation of Otake Nobutoshi, Otake Risuke eldest son who was also issue hamon but kept the historical Shinbukan dojo and still has many dojo "loyal" to him over his younger brother, the official representative.

Koryu in the end, are political entities as much as martial arts traditions.

Anonymous at Wed, 31 Jul 2024 18:52:06 UTC No. 205865

>>205859
Quite interesting.
I’m part of a dojo affiliated with Hatakeyama’s legacy (my sensei studied under him directly).
I have to say, it’s really interesting to read about tsksr, be it about political or technical stuff, I managed to get a hold on a copy of one of Sugino books, I look forward to read it.
The one that I would gladly have but can’t find is Otake’s manuals, they seem very well put together.
I have a doubt, I feel that kenjutsu at least in my experience, lacks a bit in terms of fighting spirit, it’s mainly coming from a kendoka point of view so it might be skewed because I’m used to the feel of shiai, but I rarely feel the appropriate pressure and tension of combat when doing kata with other students, only my sensei and a couple of other very senior students really make me feel like I’m fighting.
I don’t understand if it’s either a lack of dedication on their side or just that kenjutsu in itself doesn’t really foster/require a strong spirit like kendo.

Anonymous at Wed, 31 Jul 2024 19:55:59 UTC No. 205871

>>205865
>I’m part of a dojo affiliated with Hatakeyama’s legacy (my sensei studied under him directly).
Arf, talk to him then! My own teacher studied in Japan under Sugino Yoshio and Hatakeyama too.

I've both Sugino's Budo Kyohan and Otake's Deity and the Sword. They are very different beasts. As the name implies, Sugino's is useful to a martial artist as a memorandum, it's a practical book, but if you haven't been taught the techniques, you'll miss a lot. Otake's is more of a "pretty book" (nothing denigrating here, it's a very common feature for martial arts publications through the ages), superbly illustrated, there's lots of interesting historical and philosophical bits, also it's much more recent. They are both very good books if you are practicing TSKSR, but for different reasons. I used to have Otake's older kenjutsu manual, it's much more detailed than the second edition, but it's not as didactic as Sugino's, certainly on design. It obscures a lot of things on purpose so I think the second edition might be more honest so to speak, plus it's in color!

If you read french, enter "otake kenjutsu marseille" in google, you'll find pdf of the iaijutsu and kenjutsu book... (but you'll have to manually enter parts 2-3 and 4)

cont.

Anonymous at Wed, 31 Jul 2024 20:08:24 UTC No. 205872

>>205865
>>205871
cont.

I haven't done kendo, but I think I can imagine what you mean. I think this is the exact same pattern that went in the late Edo era, where people wanted to supplement kata-geiko with another form of training, though kata are great to transmit techniques and teachings. In our days then, I think it was Nakamura Taisaburo who said it best, basically, we have to remember that the last time Japan wanted to revitalize its kenjutsu techniques, it lead to mass murders in China, there absolutely is a direct connection. It's no wonder that there's zero incentive to go down that path again, in Japan at least. Also, many people appropriately would turn to Kendo for that. Several Koryu, especially such like Jikishinkage-ryu or Itto-ryu often advise people to do kenjutsu and kendo together.

I think the people who do kenjutsu and koryu simply don't do it with the spirit and intent of actually fighting (just my opinion), thus this "fighting spirit" is less pronounced and commonplace than in kendo where it's very much the point to develop such spirit, even though it's with mock fighting. It's a tautological statement sure, but then...
I've had the "chance" to be introduced to TSKSR by a guy who absolutely had an aggressive fighting spirit. Doing kata with him meant being on a spring, ir order not to catch a thrust to the legs or a quick bonk on the head. He'd happily crash into me if I was too soft in my blows, making my bokken fly through the room, etc... But I also had people who weren't exactly "going through the motions" but certainly who weren't "fighting" as well.

It also has to do with the times. Koryu aren't practical arts for a start. At the same time they can be quite demanding in terms of orthodoxy to the principles. It's not easy to be dedicated to such weird traditions. I do think most don't foster, by themselves, straightforward fighting spirit, still, it can be used to have it awaken in some people. I know it somehow did it for me.

Anonymous at Wed, 31 Jul 2024 21:07:20 UTC No. 205881

>>204987
holy shit this is a real general?

Anonymous at Thu, 1 Aug 2024 13:19:27 UTC No. 205939

>>205871
>>205872
Thanks for the info anon I’ll have a look.
I feel like that throughout the ages we lost something in kenjutsu teachings, I know that it has always been, traditionally speaking, kata only and that the introduction of sparring came about when kendo (at least it’s inception) and the fukuro shinai where invented.
However o think that we lost some part of the formal training.
We do practice cuts and movement on its own, and our sensei always tells us that kata should be broken down between the guards.
But something feels missing.

Anonymous at Thu, 1 Aug 2024 14:12:30 UTC No. 205940

>>205939
>>205872
Kata easily devolve into soulless repetition of minimal martial value, and pretty much everyone recognizes that as one of the pitfalls of the training method. It was certainly an issue in the Edo era after the wars stopped and most duels were banned. Before that most teachers had actual combat experience. As for lost things, most of my seniors know how to turn on the pressure you're talking about, but below a certain level the skill is rare, its something that has to be developed, intentionally in my opinion, and if you are never encouraged to develop it, you probably never will, unless you got it somewhere else first.

Anonymous at Thu, 1 Aug 2024 16:57:38 UTC No. 205996

>>205939
Fukuro shinai were invented in the middle of the 16th century, shiai and kata have always been interconnected. I'd say koryu have always been "losing" something, they are living arts, it's simply changing. Samurai in the 17th century were already lamenting that things weren't as it used to be. Koryu's purpose is to change. The meaning and practice of such martial arts absolutely cannot be maintained through the ages, it's already peculiar that they are still practiced desu. In the western world, koryu are really an anomaly if you paired them with our society. You better have some pretty weird persons to seriously engage in koryu practice frankly.

Frankly, that's something you should be discussing with your dojo fellows and your master because you practice in the dojo, not on the net. You should look for meaning with your partners. Do discuss frankly with them about that sense of pressure, how to instill fighting spirit etc.

And you can use the kata for this! What I've used and been taught is for instance, in Kasumi no Tachi, when tori goes: tori - wakitori - hidari do - shissai - men (shissai men for both actually), this is a perfect moment to train aggression and fighting spirit. In this part of the kata, you are supposed to strike your blow with full commitment (since maai protects you) and whoever displace the other... well achieves the technique... I think it helps to have a known, "safe" moment, where you can lash out through a technique.
People don't use kiai enough too... This is a shame because it's a great tool to control and direct aggression, the screaming helps if you go with that.

Anonymous at Mon, 12 Aug 2024 15:48:19 UTC No. 207473

>>204987
for archival purposes, the previous thread >>179387

Anonymous at Tue, 13 Aug 2024 20:17:07 UTC No. 207578

>>204987
Due to a very unfortunate work schedule I can’t attend to keiko regularly, and won’t be able for a while.
As you can imagine my technique is degrading (doesn’t help that kenjutsu is slipping through, especially with how I cut and sometimes even in the footwork) what are some good exercises to do at home to better my kendo?
For conditioning I do at least 100 suburi plus all the standard warm up and on other days do weight training as well.
For precision I place my spare shinai on a stand and try to hit the tsuka.
My sensei told me a training technique that his sensei used to use but I think it’s too early for me to train for tsuki especially at the precision required for that type of training.
Mainly I would like some tips on ways to better my tenouchi and the explosiveness of my legs.
I’ve been also told by him that in his opinion I don’t believe enough in my kendo and that’s costing me a good bit of extra performance however I have no clue how to better this part apart from doing jigeiko and shiai more frequently.
>inb4 ask your sensei
I would if I could

Anonymous at Wed, 14 Aug 2024 02:08:53 UTC No. 207617

>>207578
What rank if any/how long practicing?

No matter what you do, focus on quality over quantity. Train your stamina/cardio through other means that isn't kendo so you aren't ingraining bad reps into your muscle memory.

When you do practice, film yourself and be critical but fair. Watch youtube videos on the basics, because no matter where you are in skill, everyone goes back to polishing their basics.

>Mainly I would like some tips on ways to better my tenouchi and the explosiveness of my legs.
You mentioned you were hitting the tsuka. Instead of hitting the tsuka, stop your cut right before it hits and try to get as close as you can without hitting it. That will help with relaxing your hands for proper tenouchi.

>explosiveness of my legs
footwork drills, but focus on being quick to reset yourself and having your weight where it needs to be to launch forward without adjusting.

Anonymous at Wed, 14 Aug 2024 22:42:44 UTC No. 207680

>>207617
>what rank you are/how long have you been practicing?
I don’t have a rank yet, once again work managed to get in the way with impeccable timing, however according to my sensei I’m well within the standard of a first dan, I’ve been doing kendo for two years now.
Although I’m not going as much as I would because I have to commute to another country for work every couple of days (and those days are pretty much work only since I either finish too late or I have to sleep because I wake up too early).
I aim to get something out of my kendo journey, maybe I’ll take a shot at getting in the national team but that all depends on how well and frequently I train as well as, of course, tournament results.

Anonymous at Thu, 22 Aug 2024 06:46:05 UTC No. 208682

I'm here. I'm observing.

Anonymous at Mon, 26 Aug 2024 14:04:13 UTC No. 209110

Is kenjutsu fake?

Anonymous at Mon, 26 Aug 2024 20:50:47 UTC No. 209140

>>209110
No, why would you think this?

Anonymous at Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:23:56 UTC No. 209185

>>209140
Idk I see a bunch of people going around saying they are teaching kenjutsu and it looks fake as fuck. So then you wonder, is it all fake nowadays? Maybe the art has been lost in a sea of fakes?

Anonymous at Tue, 27 Aug 2024 16:04:06 UTC No. 209199

>>209185
Most people teaching a "kenjutsu" class probably are fake. Actual styles of kenjutsu tend to call themselves by the style name, and have a clear lineage, usually with active ties in Japan.

Anonymous at Wed, 4 Sep 2024 14:30:00 UTC No. 209855

For my birthday, my father-in-law has gifted me a tantō. I will eventually get iaido lessons, but I wanted to ask: in the meantime, is it worth to practice with the tantō alone or is its worth tied to the use of the katana and wakizashi? Thanks in advance.

Pic mostly unrelated.

Anonymous at Wed, 4 Sep 2024 15:36:24 UTC No. 209858

>>209855
Tanto won't be covered by most iaido schools. The tanto is a knife and only certain schools study it, particularly jujutsu schools. Even then they mostly use wooden knives because a sharp tanto would be rather dangerous to practice with.
In any case you can't learn any authentic Japanese martial art online or by yourself. You need to find a teacher.

Anonymous at Thu, 5 Sep 2024 21:09:36 UTC No. 209974

>>209855
As this anon said >>209858
Instead of iaido you are better off joining a kenjutsu club (read about what style they practice before joining), be warned however, most of the times the shorter weapons (kodachi, tanto, empty hand) techniques are taught at the end of the curriculum so you might need to attend for a long time before learning to use it.
Bottom line is, get a teacher before stabbing yourself or someone else.

Anonymous at Sun, 8 Sep 2024 21:55:42 UTC No. 210413

>>205588
Your mistake was doing kendo. Your bigger mistake was not playing by "their rules" and playing into the ego politics of the sport.

Theyre continuously being salty other sword arts exist, just go do MOF or HEMA or something.

Anonymous at Mon, 9 Sep 2024 14:00:40 UTC No. 210477

>>209858
>>209974

Tantoufag here. Thank you for the recommendations,. I will get into kenjutsu as soon as I can; turns out there are a couple of (apparently) reliable dojos in my area.

Also, I will not flail the sword when untrained and hurt myself or somebody else.

Anonymous at Mon, 16 Sep 2024 18:20:00 UTC No. 211150

I have to use my boken as a cane because I did not warm up before training.

Warm up.

Anonymous at Wed, 18 Sep 2024 12:53:47 UTC No. 211255

>>204987
Is modern kendo becoming too “sporty”?
I recently finished reading sensei Bennet book kendo culture of the sword and I found myself agreeing with what a lot of elder practitioners say.
I can see it in my dojo too, despite having both high dan teachers and a high level of technical skills I can see that there is a blatant disregard in the ways of self cultivation in this discipline despite itself having personal growth as one of its foremost objectives.
What is your take anon and how would you guys address this “problem in modern kendo?
Shiai is important because it’s both a check of skills and a test of mental fortitude however I don’t think this should be the sole purpose of a discipline that is literally called the way of the sword.

Anonymous at Wed, 18 Sep 2024 20:14:55 UTC No. 211289

>>211255
If you live in a hostile environment, there is no risk for discipline in becoming sporty. In my country we should use bokens instead of gunpowder weapons to solve neighborhood disputes.

Ok, maybe shinai. Bokens can still kill people.
If you live in a civilized society you can fall down the sports rabbit hole and lose your grip on reality.

But then again, we as humans evade violence and disarray because is not an ideal state. We want to practice in controlled environments. It's in our nature.

Anonymous at Mon, 7 Oct 2024 03:11:14 UTC No. 212874

I practiced. The first week of spring ends today. My body has recovered. I was able to do kirikaeshi with another person.

Anonymous at Mon, 7 Oct 2024 04:35:06 UTC No. 212878

>>211255
That shit was sporty from the jump, fruitcake.

It always is when you turn a martial art into this......pillow fighting.

Anonymous at Mon, 28 Oct 2024 19:30:13 UTC No. 214695

Every day I train a little.

>eat
>sleep
>fight another day

>eat
>sleep
>fight another day

>get a little better
>have fun

>eat
>sleep
>fight another day

Anonymous at Tue, 29 Oct 2024 06:00:50 UTC No. 214753

You should try this see how it goes.
https://youtu.be/Sn9uXABq2t4

Anonymous at Thu, 7 Nov 2024 15:49:12 UTC No. 215458

>>204987
I don't get the picture. Why is he wearing scuba gear? Are they about to do that Samurai swimming thing?

Anonymous at Fri, 8 Nov 2024 00:59:48 UTC No. 215483

>>215458
Because of the bogu, the armor protection set, is suffocating and the kirikaeshi, the training exercise, is quite demanding.

Anonymous at Thu, 14 Nov 2024 15:55:45 UTC No. 215860

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnjNOIoFj2U

Anonymous at Fri, 15 Nov 2024 04:40:06 UTC No. 215898

>>209185
the McDojos are everywhere, you have to be careful. But there's legit teachers everywhere. You just have to find them.

Anonymous at Fri, 15 Nov 2024 14:05:34 UTC No. 215918

>>214753
At least for the hayasuburi, try to move from kamae to kamae, the guy's just doing flower girl hopping from one foot to another which causes his body not to move. If you look, the head is standing still. Try to move from the hips with the whole body, it's better to sacrifice a few fractions of a second off your speed to do this properly.

Anonymous at Sun, 17 Nov 2024 05:16:35 UTC No. 216012

>>215918
If I understand correctly, the force must come from the thrust you do with the left foot, but also, this force must come from the left side of the hip and then, finally from the left arm. Is this correct? You project the summation of all those muscles in the stroke.

Anonymous at Sun, 17 Nov 2024 16:42:40 UTC No. 216023

>>216012
Since it's without tobikomi, the swing should stop when you pull the back foot into kamae after moving. Activating the hips initially to move the whole torso, not just the lower body which leads to the shown-in-the-video pendulum-like movement where the head stays still while the legs move back and forth. As long as you actually displace yourself back and forth, you're doing good.

Anonymous at Sat, 1 Feb 2025 14:23:28 UTC No. 222329

>>209855
>Pic mostly unrelated.
Based Baki Musashi poster.

Anonymous at Fri, 7 Feb 2025 06:10:20 UTC No. 222910

After consulting AI I have decided to choose the kendo pill. It's networking and socializing opportunities appear to be unmatched

Anonymous at Fri, 7 Feb 2025 14:41:56 UTC No. 222928

Any thoughts on Tankendo? Saw it lately and thought it was cool. But why are they using kodachi bokuto for kata practice instead of something that resembles a Type 30 bayonet? I thought Tankendo was born out of bayonet fencing?

Anonymous at Sat, 8 Feb 2025 20:36:31 UTC No. 223118

sometimes I do suburi with a shovel.
If someday I have to fight, is the first thing I have close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_AUeCPrM9g

I hope to reach a point where I can strike the hostile element with no doubt or fear.

Anonymous at Sat, 8 Feb 2025 20:55:54 UTC No. 223119

>>222928
Interesting. Pragmatic.

Anonymous at Tue, 18 Feb 2025 12:13:38 UTC No. 224025

tan-kendo looks comfy. Also, is it true old kendo was mixed with aiki-jujutsu\ some forms of judo?
There's old footage of kendo including grappling to remove the opponent's protector
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O41cqvNGeU8
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MwRsfJpuc

Anonymous at Sun, 16 Mar 2025 02:22:02 UTC No. 225981

I've heard aikido is more performative than practical, more traditional than useful in a modern context.

Is kendo like this too? Or does it actually teach "effective" swordsmanship above all else?

Anonymous at Wed, 19 Mar 2025 13:20:41 UTC No. 226123

>>225981
>>205865
>>205871

Koryū Daitō-ryu Aikijujutsu is legitimate but hard to find a good sensei, especially outside of Japan. Kendo teaches many things, but to answer your question - it's the product of an older kenjutsu school Itto-Ryu. Very direct and aggressive philosophy. It helps you learn how to score points in kendo. That's about it.

To properly learn to use a sword, find a koryū dojo that teaches iaijutsu (NOT seitei) or kenjutsu.

Tenshinshō-Den Katori Shinto-Ryu is the most popular for various reasons. It's also one of the oldest, and covers most weapons and strategy deeply. The Sugino-ha and Chiba-ha lines are recognised by the current sokē. Don't touch the others.

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-Ryū is Musashi's school, and still practices to this day. As with TSKSR, Niten has one branch only but "allows" the Noda-ha to practise.

As for iaijutsu (which is within the TSKSR curriculum as well), the most popular are Musō Shinden-Ryū and Musō Jikiden Eishin-Ryu. There are many more but these two are the foundation of modern iaido.

Anonymous at Wed, 19 Mar 2025 21:27:14 UTC No. 226150

>>225981
>Is kendo like this too? Or does it actually teach "effective" swordsmanship above all else?
Kendo has never been about teaching effective swordsmanship and this is known since the 1920s when they modernized the gunto no soho for the Toyama gakko because only teaching kendo proved to be useless. It's more about physical exercise and mental fortitude rather than practical swordsmanship. It teach useful things for a fighter, but it doesn't teach swordsmanship per se, that's why they had to bring the older styles back in the curriculum. Luckily they had Nakayama Hakudo around...

Swordsmanship of Japan was and should still be found in the old koryu styles.

>>226123
>it's the product of an older kenjutsu school Itto-Ryu.
Shindo Munen-Ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu too were very influential, perhaps even more so than Itto-ryu (which one anyway?). Though it doesn't change much of what you say next...

>Niten has one branch only but "allows" the Noda-ha to practise.
>"allows"
Noda-ha is recognized as a distinct tradition. There were plenty of school coming from Musashi's teachings like Nito Tetsujin-ryu for instance. Noda-ha NIR is probably one of the only ones that survived besides HNIR of course but it's literally a different branch. Just like the various Itto-ryu ones. There's no allowing here, it's a close but different style.

🗑️ Anonymous at Wed, 19 Mar 2025 22:22:37 UTC No. 226155

>>225981
>Is kendo like this too? Or does it actually teach "effective" swordsmanship above all else?
Its like western fencing. It is a sportified form of swordsmanship that evolved from certain training methods and ideas of what good swordsmanship should look like. There are limited targets in sparring and proper form is essential for scoring a point.
>>226123
>>226123
Koryū Daitō-ryu Aikijujutsu is legitimate but hard to find a good sensei, especially outside of Japan.
Daito ryu, which isnt technically koryu by most definitions though it kind of fits into a similar category, isn't that much more applicable in a modern context than aikido is. there are still aikido schools that train the hard breaking limbs techniques, and there are Daito ryu schools that emphasis softness.
>Kendo has never been about teaching effective swordsmanship and this is known since the 1920s when they modernized the gunto no soho for the Toyama gakko because only teaching kendo proved to be useless.
If you actually read what Kendo instructors, including military instructors said during that period, they generally considered "Kendo" very important. They advocated are more holistic approach than just sparring with shinai certainly, but the gunto soho stuff was never very "koryu" either. It was more like a basic course on cutting and sword handling for people who had already probably had years of shinai kendo practice. In fact some of them were not very big on koryu either.

Anonymous at Wed, 19 Mar 2025 22:34:42 UTC No. 226157

>>225981
>Is kendo like this too? Or does it actually teach "effective" swordsmanship above all else?
Its like western fencing. It is a sportified form of swordsmanship that evolved from certain training methods and ideas of what good swordsmanship should look like. There are limited targets in sparring and proper form is essential for scoring a point.
>>226150
>>226123
>Koryū Daitō-ryu Aikijujutsu is legitimate but hard to find a good sensei, especially outside of Japan.
Daito ryu, which isnt technically koryu by most definitions though it kind of fits into a similar category, isn't that much more applicable in a modern context than aikido is. there are still aikido schools that train the hard breaking limbs techniques, and there are Daito ryu schools that emphasis softness.
>Kendo has never been about teaching effective swordsmanship and this is known since the 1920s when they modernized the gunto no soho for the Toyama gakko because only teaching kendo proved to be useless.
If you actually read what Kendo instructors, including military instructors said during that period, they generally considered "Kendo" very important. They advocated are more holistic approach than just sparring with shinai certainly, but the gunto soho stuff was never very "koryu" either. It was more like a basic course on cutting and sword handling for people who had already probably had years of shinai kendo practice. In fact some of them were not very big on koryu either.

Anonymous at Thu, 20 Mar 2025 03:40:16 UTC No. 226167

>>226150
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu more so than the other two if i recall, but essentially yes. I was referring to Ono-ha Itto-Ryu by the way.

As for Niten:
There is one mainline school, the Hyōhō Niten Ichi-Ryū, which with the sokē's blessing, allows Noda-ha to practise with the "Niten" name to ensure quality control.

That's not to say it's wrong, or as bad as Gosho-ha or the Musashikai kendo hybrids, but it's still overseen by Kajiya-sokē. Much like how Sugino-ha is "allowed" by Iizasa.

Anonymous at Thu, 20 Mar 2025 06:44:19 UTC No. 226170

>>226157
>Daito ryu, which isnt technically koryu by most definitions though it kind of fits into a similar category, isn't that much more applicable in a modern context than aikido is. there are still aikido schools that train the hard breaking limbs techniques, and there are Daito ryu schools that emphasis softness.

It's a koryū handed down by the Takeda clan, but admittedly diluted over the centuries. Those (rare) dojos that practise its preserved curriculum are very legitimate and some still do enbu. I think the last one was 2017 at the Meiji jingu?

It was primarily intended for the house guards in disarming armed infiltrators and traitors in environments where the defendants would typically be unarmed e.g. court gatherings, rituals, and to some extent skirmishes after large scale battles.

Anonymous at Thu, 20 Mar 2025 17:47:05 UTC No. 226191

>>226170
>It's a koryū handed down by the Takeda clan, but admittedly diluted over the centuries.
This is the traditional account, but it seems like most experts doubt it now, and the art is largely believed to be the invention of Takeda Sokaku. Likewise the claim that it descends from a battlefield art modified to deal with court security has come under a great deal of scrutiny. Its been awhile since i read up on the subject but none of the scrolls appear to predate him, and all his major students have a slightly different official curriculum, suggesting that one did not exist when he taught and that the curriculum as it exists now was put together by his successors. The man he named as his teacher also appears to have had no serious experience in marital arts. Rather Takeda was well aquainted with many Yoshin ryu jujutsu teachers, and many Daito ryu techniques bear a resemblance to surviving lines of Yoshin ryu, and he lived as a traveling swordsman and budoka for years, giving him ample opportunity to study a variety of martial arts.
There are a number of books and articles on the subject, and generally the only people, at least in the west who give much credence to the traditional narrative are students of Daito ryu and some aikidoka.

Anonymous at Thu, 20 Mar 2025 22:57:09 UTC No. 226205

>>226167
>Much like how Sugino-ha is "allowed" by Iizasa.
There's no such things as Sugino-ha. Iizasa soke authorized two dojo, the one of Sugino Yukihiro and Kyoso Shigetoshi. Both are TSKSR and there's no Otake-ha or Sugino-ha. The term doesn't exist, both dojo are sanctioned by the soke.

Anonymous at Thu, 20 Mar 2025 23:02:19 UTC No. 226206

>>226157
>If you actually read what Kendo instructors, including military instructors said during that period, they generally considered "Kendo" very important. They advocated are more holistic approach than just sparring with shinai certainly, but the gunto soho stuff was never very "koryu" either. It was more like a basic course on cutting and sword handling for people who had already probably had years of shinai kendo practice. In fact some of them were not very big on koryu either.
Yes kendo was important in terms of mental fortitude and physical training, but it's not practical swordsmanship. They found out the hard way that kendo doesn't prepare to handle a real blade, doesn't prepare to cut, doesn't even prepare good hasuji and these from people who graduated from the Toyama Gakko.
My post was specifically about kendo being "effective swordsmanship", it wasn't and isn't. My statement doesn't go further than that.
It can't be surprising that the GnS wasn't very koryu since most of the Empire is a frank opposition on samurai organisation (naturally) and this goes to koryu too.

Anonymous at Fri, 21 Mar 2025 01:33:05 UTC No. 226214

>>226206
>Yes kendo was important in terms of mental fortitude and physical training, but it's not practical swordsmanship. They found out the hard way that kendo doesn't prepare to handle a real blade, doesn't prepare to cut, doesn't even prepare good hasuji and these from people who graduated from the Toyama Gakko.
I agree with all this, but I think your comments misrepresent how they saw the role of Kendo in their training.
What sort of sword training would be most practical of if there even is such thing was a question very much in dispute during the war years, and though it became largely moot post WWII, some people in Japan continued to argue about it. They, that is the military instructors tended to champion the notion of Kendo and Batto as two wheels of a cart, and for lack of a simpler way to put it, saw Kendo as the "alive" or sparring portion of their training. It is a position that some koryu people also hold, but is probably more popular in Kendo circles today than with many koryu guys. Yes they would dunk on Kendo for the cutting issues, and Batto guys do to this day, but military kendo and jukendo continued alongside the Gunto no Soho training, and many Toyama ryu guys remained involved in both of those in their post war forms as well.

Anonymous at Fri, 21 Mar 2025 03:41:59 UTC No. 226219

>>226191
There's internal documentation that confirms this, as the Meiji Enbus require a pretty stringent qualification for demonstration. Sadly very few are allowed to access these much less in the West. Apparently, according to reliable Japanese hoplologists, the documentation for Daitō-ryu is verifiable as pre-restoration.

>>226205
You're technically correct, as Sugino didn't adapt TSKSR nor receive Menkyo Kaiden afaik, nor permission to alter the ryū. However there are differences between Otake's kihon and Sugino's kihon, especially noticeable within the iai kata. "-ha" in this sense means "branch of", not necessarily "version of", considering no member of the Iizasa family is currently teaching. It's an odd time for Katori.

Anonymous at Fri, 21 Mar 2025 05:37:42 UTC No. 226225

>>226214
Sorta kinda

>though it became largely moot post WWII, some people in Japan continued to argue about it. They, that is the military instructors tended to champion the notion of Kendo and Batto as two wheels of a cart, and for lack of a simpler way to put it, saw Kendo as the "alive" or sparring portion of their training. It is a position that some koryu people also hold, but is probably more popular in Kendo circles today than with many koryu guys. Yes they would dunk on Kendo for the cutting issues, and Batto guys do to this day, but military kendo and jukendo continued alongside the Gunto no Soho training, and many Toyama ryu guys remained involved in both of those in their post war forms as well.

The ban and collection of swords was mandated by the US occupancy, and many priceless shinken were lost, not just gunto.

As a koryū guy I admit we dunk on kendo but it's a meme more than anything. We marvel at their athleticism and reiho, as well as the commitment to the art by older and newer generations. It's suffocated by point scoring of course, which dilutes authentic kenjutsu and iaijutsu insight into the sport because of constrained environments... but it's the real deal. I watch it often.

Anonymous at Fri, 21 Mar 2025 13:36:55 UTC No. 226233

>>226219
>You're technically correct
The best kind of correct, so there's no Sugino-ha, the term used is Sugino Dojo which is already plenty descriptive enough.

>However there are differences between Otake's kihon and Sugino's kihon
There used to be nine shihans with authority at some point! Yet even Hayashi Yazaemon sanctioned Sugino when he was chosen to write the Budo Kyohan so i wouldn't say that the differences in presentation (which are real) matters enough, it certainly doesn't matter enough for the soke, which is all that is.

>nor receive Menkyo Kaiden afaik
With respect you don't know enough as he does have MK.

>It's an odd time for Katori
Yuuup...

🗑️ Anonymous at Fri, 21 Mar 2025 17:02:48 UTC No. 226236

>>226219
>There's internal documentation that confirms this,
I certainly cant speak to this, but if there is documentation predating Meiji, at the very least we know that almost everything that has been said about the school up until Takeda made it public is inaccurate, as many of the detail Takeda gave about his life and art have been refuted by modern researchers both in the west and in Japan. This does not mean a lot in itself, as many legitimate koryu have unverifiable or legendary aspects to their history that cannot possibly be true, but I know a lot of very respected people who are now skeptical.

>>226225
>As a koryū guy I admit we dunk on kendo but it's a meme more than anything.
I think a lot of koryu guys have rightly moved away from this. They still acknolege the sportified nature of it but they also note that many koryu exist along side Kendo, and are often trained together in the same dojo.

Anonymous at Fri, 21 Mar 2025 17:15:46 UTC No. 226237

>>226219
>There's internal documentation that confirms this,
I certainly cant speak to this, but if there is documentation predating Meiji, at the very least we know that almost everything that has been said about the school up until Takeda made it public is inaccurate, as many of the detail Takeda gave about his life and art have been refuted by modern researchers both in the west and in Japan. This isn't definitive itself, as many legitimate koryu have unverifiable or legendary aspects to their history that cannot possibly be true, but I know a lot of very respected people who are now skeptical.

>>226225
>As a koryū guy I admit we dunk on kendo but it's a meme more than anything.
I think a lot of koryu guys have rightly moved away from this. They still acknowledge the sportified nature of it but they also note that many koryu exist along side kendo, and are often trained together in the same dojo.

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