🧵 MMA Weight Classes
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 06:35:41 GMT No. 216958
The super jacked heavyweights and super heavyweights clearly put a lot of time into strength training. Strength training is the best thing you can do for explosiveness. Feel free to debate me on this, but it's pretty obvious. Once you've mastered technique, the only thing going to give you an edge is further explosiveness. I am a noob at martial arts, so correct me if I'm wrong at this. I know cardiovascular potential is also important, and bigger guys technically have less of it, even if they do plenty of cardio.
Now, how much of an advantage would a 7'6, 500 pounds of lean mass giant who can deadlift 505 kilos raw as part of his warmup have against other opponents? He would look like something from DBZ. I imagine he wouldn't have to be nearly as skilled to be super successful.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 06:45:42 GMT No. 216960
Athleticism is the best martial art. Training your reflexes, cardio, flexibility, strength, etc., will give you the edge over more people than if you were just learning fighting technique.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 06:48:09 GMT No. 216961
>>216960
I've heard from several sources that actual skill in martial arts trumps everything else.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 06:52:39 GMT No. 216964
>>216961
Who do you think would win in a fight?
>Guy A: very fit but no knowledge of martial arts
>Guy B: knows a lot about martial arts but 0 fitness
Your answer is probably Guy A. It doesn't really matter if you are an amateur fighting an amateur or a pro fighting a pro, most fights are lost due to inferior fitness
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 08:04:22 GMT No. 216967
>>216964
>most fights are lost due to inferior fitness
Proof?
Do you think some super huge athlete would've been able to beat this guy just because he's way bigger, stronger, and has more cardiovascular potential?
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IUMu
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 13:29:50 GMT No. 216982
Martial arts is athleticism times technique. I have no evidence for this but the cap on technique is lower for an untrained individual than strength. An untrained man can lift around 70 kg while an elite lifter can lift 250 kg or more. A BJJ black belt is a purple belt with greater timing and precision.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:05:27 GMT No. 216998
>>216967
You think Sean O'Malley is unfit?
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:09:19 GMT No. 217002
>>217001
And you think that's all there is to fitness?
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:09:50 GMT No. 217003
>>217002
He doesn't look like he does any exercise.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:14:58 GMT No. 217005
>>216960
top kek enjoy a cracked skull from being thrown on concrete
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:15:21 GMT No. 217006
>>217004
If he actually exercised, he'd have more muscle than that. By the way, larger people, regardless of if they're larger due to more muscle or more fat, typically have inferior cardiovascular endurance to smaller people. Why do you think all those top marathon runners are underweight? Sean O'Malley is virtually underweight for his height, and he was underweight when he was a featherweight. If he fucking ate normally, he'd likely weigh somewhere between 140 and 150. That wouldn't even be from exercise, and most of that new weight would be in muscle.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:16:05 GMT No. 217007
>>217004
dont bother with him
it's obvious the guy doenst train whatsoever.
The cardio difference for fighting vs gym is so vast he would probably need to take a break at his first class
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:19:51 GMT No. 217008
>>217007
He can't even eat enough to have a normal body weight for his height. How am I supposed to believe he actually does cardio, other than his MMA training?
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:22:39 GMT No. 217009
>>217008
the type of cardio needed to fight can only be gained through fighting.
It's a completely different monster. If you trained you'd know this
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:32:37 GMT No. 217014
>>217009
Just like how traditional strength training will increase the force of your strikes, proper cardio will increase your cardiovascular potential. You get the most adaptations from HIIT. You're not marathon running, so you don't need to do any slow steady state shit. I honestly don't even know any martial arts, but this is basic exercise science.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:33:33 GMT No. 217015
>>217014
if you dont know how to throw a punch your punch is gonna be weak
this is basic fighting knowledge
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:35:40 GMT No. 217016
>>217015
Yes, but your argument is with cardio. There's no way in hell you're going to get anywhere near maximizing the stimulus needed to increase your cardiovascular potential from just martial arts.
Anonymous at Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 18:36:46 GMT No. 217017
>>217016
you're retarded and have no idea what you're talking about dude.
A lot of martial artists live to be incredibly old.
Anonymous at Thu, 12 Dec 2024, 15:50:13 GMT No. 217462
>>217008
why the fuck would him eating like a fatass pig trying to build muscle would help him in any way shape or form? that'll make weight cuts harder for him. + he's been very successful at BW, he'd get mauled at any other weight classes.
Anonymous at Fri, 13 Dec 2024, 05:18:56 GMT No. 217494
>>217462
>+ he's been very successful at BW, he'd get mauled at any other weight classes.
I'm wondering if his reach has anything to do with him performing so well. He's virtually underweight for his height in his current weight class.
Anonymous at Fri, 13 Dec 2024, 11:52:19 GMT No. 217509
>>217494
It's mostly the reach, there are only two other fighters in that division that are as tall as him and of them O'Malley has the longest wingspan
>underweight
I think he has stated somewhere that he walks around at 150+ and regains like 15lbs between weigh-in and the fight. So he's skinny but not Auschwitz mode and presumably mostly cuts water weight
Anonymous at Wed, 22 Jan 2025, 22:33:04 GMT No. 220756
Forget about weight, what if this heavyweight dude is ludicrously strong. Like, he can bench 600 and deadlift 900. How much of an advantage would he get for this extreme strength?
https://soundcloud.com/glwzbll-musi
Anonymous at Thu, 23 Jan 2025, 09:56:58 GMT No. 220772
>>216967
Dricus.
Lacking in skill but he destroys everyone with stats.
>more strength
>more power
>more HP
>more stamina
Doesn't matter that Israel Adesanya was way more deft and skilled than him. All he needed was one powerful blow to dizzy Adesanya, then submit him.
Another example, Ngannou.
>insane power
>insane chin
Up until Stipe Miocic he coasted off his physical abilities. He would just brawl without a care in the world, case in point: Rozenstruik. Rozenstruik hit him with multiple countershots while dodging like 5 of his punches, but the moment 1 or 2 slipped through he was fucked. The skill gap didn't matter, Ngannou beat a seasoned kickboxing with what is tantamount to streetfighting.
>>216982
Basically.
There's a reason women don't fight men, and lightweights don't fight heavyweights.
>>220756
Less. Would be insane at grappling. The issue with just being super strong without being heavy, is that Force = Mass*Acceleration. So his punches might have some more acceleration, but ultimately being big and heavy is better because the acceleration decreases only a little bit, while the mass goes way up.
>>217494
Reach is another physical advantage. It's why the spear is the king of weapons in warfare, while the sword was simply a sidearm you took out if you broke your main weapon or the enemy got too close.
🗑️ Anonymous at Thu, 23 Jan 2025, 18:24:36 GMT No. 220795
>>220772
>The issue with just being super strong without being heavy, is that Force = Mass*Acceleration.
If you're throwing strikes, the thing that's hitting you is fists, elbows, feet, shins, and knees. They don't change in mass with bodyweight. Correct me if I'm missing something. If you're super strong, those strikes are going to be hitting much harder. Explosiveness/power correlates very well with strength. Think of the person who benches 225 as a one rep max VS the person who can bench 225 for 30. The person who can bench 225 for 30 pushes that weight up super fast like there's nothing in his hands.
🗑️ Anonymous at Thu, 23 Jan 2025, 18:31:17 GMT No. 220797
>>220772
>The issue with just being super strong without being heavy, is that Force = Mass*Acceleration.
If you're throwing strikes, the thing that's hitting you is fists, elbows, feet, shins, and knees. They don't change in mass with bodyweight. They may correlate with height, though, and genetics will always play a role in how much mass they have. Correct me if I'm missing something. If you're super strong, those strikes are going to be hitting much harder. Explosiveness/power correlates very well with strength. Think of the person who benches 225 as a one rep max VS the person who can bench 225 for 30. The person who can bench 225 for 30 pushes that weight up super fast like there's nothing in his hands.
Anonymous at Thu, 23 Jan 2025, 18:36:28 GMT No. 220798
>>220772
>The issue with just being super strong without being heavy, is that Force = Mass*Acceleration.
If you're throwing strikes, the thing that's hitting you is fists, elbows, feet, shins, and knees. They don't change in mass with bodyweight. They may correlate with height, though, and genetics will always play a role in how much mass they have. Correct me if I'm missing something. If you're super strong, those strikes are going to be hitting much harder. Explosiveness/power correlates very well with strength. Think of the person who benches 225 as a one rep max VS the person who can bench 225 for 30. The person who can bench 225 for 30 pushes that weight up super fast like there's nothing in his hands.
>Force = Mass*Acceleration
Also, for striking, wouldn't the equation for kinetic energy make more sense? This is what's used to determine how powerful a firearm caliber is. The equation is KE = Mass*Velocity^2, so if you increase velocity by 20%, you increase KE by 44%, while if you increase mass by 20%, you just increase KE by 20%.
Anonymous at Thu, 23 Jan 2025, 21:30:15 GMT No. 220824
Mighty Mouse wouldn't beat Brock Lesnar. There are levels
Anonymous at Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 02:02:11 GMT No. 220847
>>220798
>the thing that's hitting you is fists, elbows, feet, shins, and knees.
>They don't change in mass with bodyweight.
That's a fallacy. If you're throwing arm-punches or moving backwards while hitting they don't change much in mass.
Punches are thrown with your whole body twisting and leaning forward. That's why coaches will tell you to "sit down" on your punches. You're trying to leverage as much mass as possible so it isn't like a bug bite. Exception would be jabs where you try to score points, and distract to set up larger punches.
This principle is also why you only do ground and pound when you're in the top position. Gravity is helping you put your mass into your punches. If mass was irrelevant, and it was all about speed, people on the bottom would be able to strike with as much efficiency as people in mount or on top. Upkicking would be as devastating as stomping, but it isn't because mass is a key factor.
>KE = Mass*Velocity^2, so if you increase velocity by 20%, you increase KE by 44%
Well it's as I said here: >>220772
>ultimately being big and heavy is better because the acceleration decreases only a little bit, while the mass goes way up.
The acceleration does not increase to a great degree to the point it matters more than mass.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/
Here they say Mighty Mouse, Dodson, and O'Malley are some of the fastest. Do they have the strongest punches?
Anonymous at Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 02:09:54 GMT No. 220848
>>220798
>Correct me if I'm missing something. If you're super strong, those strikes are going to be hitting much harder.
>Explosiveness/power correlates very well with strength.
Honestly they will be but there will be diminishing returns. It correlates but some people are very strong and stiff, with slow movements. If I think about it more you're definitely more right than I suggested in the previous post, but not completely right.
The strikes could hit a decent amount harder, but speed has a limit in humans. You can't really be 2x faster than somebody, but you can be 2x stronger. So being stronger won't necessarily give you bullet-like punches. The difference in 100m sprint times between Usain Bolt and the fastest woman is around 10-12%. The difference in Bench Press between men and women, from what I remember, is around 30-50%. So while strength will make you faster and give you powerful punches, it won't make you insanely faster.
Pure mass and weight is still going to be a limiting factor.
If it was about swinging an axe, greatsword or a sledgehammer, I think your theoretical super-strength guy would be a lot more terrifying, but mass is just too important for hand-to-hand punching.
Who are your favorite fighters by the way?
Anonymous at Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 02:27:19 GMT No. 220849
>>220847
>Punches are thrown with your whole body twisting and leaning forward. That's why coaches will tell you to "sit down" on your punches. You're trying to leverage as much mass as possible so it isn't like a bug bite.
That whole technique is for the purpose of moving your fist as fast as possible. Strength is largely correlated with muscle mass, but still distinct. The fat tissue on your body isn't going to be doing anything to allow you to throw more energetic punches. Kinetic energy requires mass. The mass comes from your fist. That is the thing that strikes your opponent. The faster your fist is moving, the more energy is going to be behind it. If you're stronger, you're going to be more explosive, and if you're more explosive, you're strikes are going to have more velocity behind them, and you're strikes will be more energetic. I've heard that putting something heavy in your hand will give you much stronger strikes. This is because you're adding mass to your fist, and you're still able to accelerate it to roughly the same degree.
Anonymous at Fri, 24 Jan 2025, 02:42:42 GMT No. 220851
>>220847
>If mass was irrelevant, and it was all about speed, people on the bottom would be able to strike with as much efficiency as people in mount or on top. Upkicking would be as devastating as stomping, but it isn't because mass is a key factor.
When you're on the ground, your body can't just move back to absorb the blow slowly; it has to take everything all at once. If you stomp someone on the ground, his body isn't going to be moving back to absorb the strikes slowly; his body will be absorbing the strikes all at once and fully.
Anonymous at Mon, 31 Mar 2025, 04:01:35 GMT No. 227378
>>216958
If the fight is long and the two fighters are fairly well matched- it is more likely muscular and cardiovascular endurance that will grant the edge to one over the other.
If one fighter has a large physical strength gap over the other fighter, the fight will likely end quickly with a higher potential of injury for the weaker opponent, but also the stronger opponent. Assuming their other physical characteristics are in the same ballpark.
Physical build also matters just as much as anything else, a small guy that is both muscular and fat is in a much better position to win especially if he has a good cardiovascular gas tank (which yes is possible, but soul crushing to achieve) because he actually has a mass advantage over an equal height and reach opponent. It is worth mentioning that technique and gas tank for the theoretical lean opponent can bridge this gap.
Height weight and reach advantage is a multiplier all by itself, and most experienced fighters don't get the chance to fight someone like that because they are exceedingly rare.
I have done Buhurt for 7 months and 6ft is normal sized for the sport, a big guy in Buhurt would be 7ft and up. We have one guy like that out of a team of 30. We are all bloatmaxxed, btw. This is a sport that overly attracts big, generally out of shape autistic guys that have the balls to actually fight in armor. For Buhurt, the fight ends depending on format, in Pro Fight format, ground and pound is legal for 10 seconds- and the fighters are reset. In melee, your fight ends when you make 3 points of contact with the ground- however that happens.
Our big guy maxes every slider on the scale save for gas tank and muscle, but he has built some muscle under his fat. He is much like a bear. I have fought him several times, I am 240 6'1 and it is a fucking nightmare to fight him in armor. I have been fighting longer than him and it makes no difference.
Anonymous at Mon, 31 Mar 2025, 15:56:54 GMT No. 227402
If my opponents body is heavier, I have to spend more energy to make it move- however my opponent also has to spend more energy to make it move. The problem is that my opponents body is more use to moving that weight, because it has to move that weight every day, and it's super use to moving that weight if my opponent actually lifts and does enough cardio.
If you're fighting an opponent that is well adapted to their frame and it's characteristics, you're going to be at a disadvantage- because what is every second of life to them is heavy to you. If you could move your smaller, skinnier frame as well as they move their bulkier and heavier frame, then the best possible build would be lean.
Any strength athlete will tell you that they get weaker on a cut, and it's more difficult to maintain strength on a cut. This is because a more muscular and fat person is always in a caloric surplus- so for them it's more about supplying the necessary energy for that bigger bulkier frame. There is also something known as momentum, and the heavier an object is, more energy is required to stop that momentum.
If someone is lean, then they in theory have less weight slowing them down and have a much greater potential to accelerate their movements. However, if they haven't built muscle on that lean frame and/or programmed that lean frame with progressive overload sufficiently- then they will be at a disadvantage in a fight because they aren't explosive enough.
So why don't fighters look like bodybuilders? Because the more muscle you add onto a frame and the more drugs you take, the harder it is on your other bodily systems. Those muscles need a tremendous amount of oxygen to run well and if you haven't built the heart and lungs necessary to support them, your bodybuilder fighter is going to gas out far too quickly and won't be able to get their body to move.
Take everything I just said and then look at the physique of your average UFC fighter.
Anonymous at Mon, 31 Mar 2025, 22:19:04 GMT No. 227463
>>216958
>strength vs skill
Not really comparable because strength doesn't exist in a vacuum and it's all about "how many weapons you have". Skill is a weapon, as is strength. But so is height, weight, speed, durability, stamina, strategy, etc. Usually, when these strength vs skill debates show up, the strong guy is also taller, heavier, and tougher, so it's already 4 vs 1 in the strong guy's favor. And that's assuming that he is slow, stupid, and has no stamina, which might not be the case. Of course he wins! The only times the skilled guy wins is when he also outclasses his opponent in a few additional factors.
Anonymous at Mon, 31 Mar 2025, 23:15:38 GMT No. 227477
Foreman was a large guy who did strongman type training
Just look at how hard he hit. He will knock you out through your damn guard
Anonymous at Mon, 31 Mar 2025, 23:44:31 GMT No. 227483
>>227463
It's interesting you mention the concepts of durability and strategy, I do believe skill limits strategy, if you have no skill- what are the chances of you coming up with a decent strategy to defeat your opponent? Another interesting thing to consider is whether or not we should separate skills and experience? I think they are two different things, take kimbo slice for example. Certainly he was skilled in some ways, but he was more experienced than he was skilled, which outlines his later difficulties.
I think you can also be skilled and not experienced, it is the fusion of both skill and experience that produces impressive technique and the wisdom necessary to apply it when you need to.
Also how you talk about speed as if it is its own category. How does one train "speed"? I can only imagine that it is the minds proficiency in utilizing the mind muscle connection to execute movements as fast as possible, but how much of that is drilling skill and how much of that is natural innate mind muscle connection that is largely immutable? Sure there is the idea of doing something faster, but is it just efficiency of the movement and muscle memory being improved over time or could you always move that fast, just not with as much accuracy due to a lack of skill, or some bodily limitation, like weight or lack of explosive strength?
I think of durability more so as mental toughness to push through pain, unless bathing yourself in dog medicine and kicking trees with your shin counts as "durability training" which sounds dubious to me at best. Or punching sand, whatever it is. I know it's true that you can build up scar tissue and calcium deposits but is it actually making you more durable?
This is where we remember all the UFC fights where a leg kick gets checked and "well conditioned" shins snap in half against the thick part of the opponents knee.
The main advantage "height & reach" grant I guess is range and the potential to build a good stacked frame.