Image not available


Screenshot 2024-0....png

🧵 Pack it up Judo fags

Anonymous No. 197626

Anonymous No. 197627

Oof. However will esoteric judo dweebs recover?

Anonymous No. 197629

This guy sounds like Spongebob so therefore I will not listen to him.

Anonymous No. 197630

>in terms of getting an opponent to a ground, wrestling beats judo and it's not even close
I mean yeah, if I tackle someone with my whole body and we both land on the ground I guess so.

Anonymous No. 197631

This faggot got beat up by fucking icy Mike

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197632

Why does this guy love sucking MMA and Wrastlin' cock so much? I feel like every video he's put up is just him explaining how MMA, K-Boxing and Wrestling is the solution for anything related to combat sports.

Here's the whole video:
>bro judo sucks because the two judokas dont waste time fucking around on the ground instead of getting back up trying to score an ippon so it has a bad scoring system
>bro judo sucks against wrestling because every wrestler will just use double legs and they cant do hip throws good (even though can)
>bro judo sucks against bjj because they dont scramble on the ground to get a pin
>bro judo sucks in irl street fightz because they'll take their coat off and theyll just get back up every time you throw them, also every body in a street fight is a professional counter attacker to any judo throws so youll fall on your face and knees
>bro judo sucks in mma because... well it just does okay!
>thanks 4 watching please watch my 30 other videos on wrestling, boxing and mma

It's like he doesn't understand when you throw someone in Judo you're supposed to be in position to pin them, not fucking scramble and try to fight for positioning. His whole view is like trying to put football against tennis or air hockey and say how football's point scoring system and techniques don't work.

Anonymous No. 197634

It’s crazy how all the people who think judo sucks don’t actually train it. Then you have guys like sensei Seth who originally considered judo to be “c-tier” then actually trained it and completely changed his mind.

Anonymous No. 197635

Judo is the foundation of all submission grappling today

Anonymous No. 197636

Most people think Judo sucks because there's a relative lack of a developed middle in a lot of countries compared to wrestling, and they never get chance to interact with people who are training for Olympic competition.

Anonymous No. 197638

You can pull of wrestling moves in sparring after 1 session

You can't pull of any judo moves unless the stars are perfectly aligned and you spent years mastering the intricate elusive throws daily

Anonymous No. 197639

>koshi guruma? Heh, good luck pulling that esoteric crap on me

Anonymous No. 197640

he said a wazaari is worth 10 points
I know exactly what that faggot did is he went on to reddit and saw wazaari with a 10 next to it and thought that meant how many points it was worth rather than how many seconds in osaekomi it takes to get the score

he doesn't even understand on a layman spectators level the rules of judo and he's going to make a 16 minute video DEBOOONKING

Anonymous No. 197642

I didn’t watch the video did he actually say that? Lmfao.

Anonymous No. 197643

Its the foundation of Catch Wrestling? I think you are wrong.

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197646

catch wrestling doesn't even exist really but even then it's impossible to deny the influence judo has had in all grappling arts
it was already in the anglosphere for over 100 years
and we know this because we know teddy roosevelt was a practitioner

Anonymous No. 197650

>armchair violence
Opinion discarded. This guys takes are always fucking retarded. Constantly comparing shit he doesn't even fucking train. Plus, I am not sorry but I am not taking a single word from a gangly little twig boy who has never even done anything in all this fucking time to improve his physique/athleticism. I don't believe this faggot trains at all. Not just martial arts, this queer doesn't even do fucking calisthenics.

Anonymous No. 197653

>all grappling arts
there you go again, look at Collegiate wrestling

Anonymous No. 197654

what about it?

Anonymous No. 197655

he has a video saying you don't need to wear wraps or gloves when you do bag work and if you do it's because you're punching wrong

counter point: if you can get away with doing an actual training session on a bag without wraps at the very least you have really weak punches

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197657


Anonymous No. 197658

Everything he said is right regardless if he's a homosexual. No other style has this many redditfags sucking it up as the ultimate perfect combat art than judo. Fucking karate produced more UFC champs than judo ever has

Anonymous No. 197659

BJJ is THE martial art with the most redditors on it's dick.

Anonymous No. 197662

judo has produced all UFC champions

Anonymous No. 197663

Anything you can do to make nogi judo work is against the rules dipshit. You can totally still get the right grips to do throws but you would need to be allowed to grab skin. Even on fit/muscular people you can dig your fingers in and bunch up enough skin to throw someone but you would immediately get DQd. You can't grab at the throat, the clavicle, or near the kidneys where you can bunch up the love handles. No clawing action allowed at all. Anything you could grab, you can't. So thanks for pointing out that nogi judo is too violent for ufc captain obvious.

Anonymous No. 197671

I kinda don't like the constant judo wank either but the reason for this is judo fags make way more money just doing judo. MMA fighters are a few steps above carnies. They make more money losing boxing matches.

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197672

I was about to go through this and make a list of which moves would or wouldn't work without a gi, but then I realize I can only find about 3 of them if that many which would explicitly require a gi and can't also be done with simple over/under hooks and arm drags instead

Anonymous No. 197674

Sure but every time a judo guy tried MMA back in Pride every single one of em got BTFO and there they even let them wear their gi and that was when the meta for MMA wasn't even optimized.

Anonymous No. 197675

>it's too deadly for sports

Now you're parrotting kung fu fags lmao. Also no gi judo doesn't fucking exist. Whatever you're thinking of is just shitty wrestling.

Anonymous No. 197677

Petr Yan and Stipe have a boxing base. You don't see boxers move to MMA but no one ever doubts how good boxing is for MMA. Fucking nobody ever grinds judo preparing for their fights like people do for wrestling or BJJ

Anonymous No. 197678

>every time a judo guy tried MMA back in Pride every single one of em got BTFO
Why are you making shit up?

Anonymous No. 197680


Yeah I mean what I said. And this was the best judo had to offer as well. Olympic gold medalist ends up being a tomato can. And that was when they still had an edge over other fighters not being caught up to grappling. Try that today when everyone wrestles now

Anonymous No. 197684

Post time stamp

Anonymous No. 197685

>Fucking nobody ever grinds judo preparing for their fights like people do for wrestling or BJJ
because judo is already omnipresent, it's the mother sauce
name some grappling techniques used in MMA that didn't originate in judo?
morote gari, ogoshi, uchimata, koshi guruma, juji gatame, ude garami, ashi sankaku jime, hadaka jime, kata gatame, mufuggin ashi garami
all the shit you take for granted thinking it makes your MMA grappling special is just lifted straight from judo and renamed by narcissists insisting they came up with it first

even MUH DAGESTANI SAMBO. Sambo is literally just judo with a soviet coat of paint on it

Anonymous No. 197686

>Royce Gracie lost to a tomato can
>proceeded to cry and shit himself about it until the loss was changed to a no contest
What’s that say about BJJ?

Anonymous No. 197688

I'd like to state for the record I left a comment on the video a few hours ago calling out his bullshit take and he deleted it
he's only allowing people that agree with him in the comments section

Anonymous No. 197690

lol, lmao even. I should have guessed the non-fighting martial arts YouTuber can’t even handle the sting of a negative comment

Anonymous No. 197693

Catch wrestling isn't as influencial as you think it is, the biggest thing it had going for it was the ruleset. They had none of todays modern useful moves, it was mainly pull on something until they admit defeat, there was no submission techniques other than things even toddlers try doing

Anonymous No. 197698

Royce isn't the only BJJ rep and Gracies are a joke to most BJJ competitors. Royce wasn't even the best Gracie guy. You don't even have to look at UFC. In Pride you saw BJJ fighters dominate at top level. You can't say the same for judo.

Anonymous No. 197699

every time

Anonymous No. 197700

With this logic you can fucking say judo took everything from wrestling. You're fucking wrong. People have boxing coach, wrestling coach, BJJ coach. No one ever hires a dedicated judo coach. You're the narcissist fag for trying to steal credit from wrestling and BJJ for judo. And mentioning sambo isn't any better for judo's case when some muslim sambo guys show better judo in fights than any dedicated judokas ever did since MMA was invented. It just goes to show you that judo's training and system is bad for fighting.

Anonymous No. 197701

>0 champions

BJJ is better than judo

Anonymous No. 197702

>With this logic you can fucking say judo took everything from wrestling
no you can't

they origins of jujitsu in japan are well documented, as is the proliferation of wrestling and it's very much a relationship moving in one direction
you're just avin a laff if you're over here trying to say western martial arts influenced eastern ones to a degree anywhere near what eastern did for western
and btw wrestlers don't really have that same level of tribalism bjjobbers do because they don't feel so insecure about what they know, so they're perfectly happy to admit when they took something from judo
"here's an old judo move" if you've never heard your wrestling coach say that you've never wrestled

Anonymous No. 197704

>0 champions
>Fucking karate produced more UFC champs than judo ever has

Anonymous No. 197705

>zero champions
Stop making shit up

Anonymous No. 197706

BJJ fags will use literally anything. It's the least limited form of grappling. You can walk in and wrestlefuck people if you want.

It's judofags that are constantly taking shots at wrestling and BJJ

Anonymous No. 197707

Collegiate wrestling may have descended from catch wrestling, but it's a few steps removed. Daniel Cormier was an NCAA All-American and wrestling Olympian and had no idea catch wrestling even existed until he fought Josh Barnett. Not to mention Greco-Roman has nothing to do with catch wrestling and arguably is the most successful wrestling style in MMA historically.

Anonymous No. 197708

>It's judofags that are constantly taking shots at wrestling and BJJ
What reality do you live in? Judo general is constantly inundated with drooling retards from other sports or those that don’t train at all. I’m willing to be bjj general does not have the same problem.

Anonymous No. 197709

>BJJ fags will use literally anything
because BJJ doesn't actually work as advertised so they have no choice but to use moves from other arts to compensate
wrestlers don't need to practice BJJ to become great wrestlers
judoka don't need to practice BJJ to become great judoka
Buttscooting Jizz Junkies need to go out of their way to practice judo and wrestling to cover the holes in their shitty sport

Anonymous No. 197719

>don frye
>dan savern
>vitor belfort
Only judoka and hes a tomato can

You're digging a hole for yourself

Anonymous No. 197720

>all black belts in judo
every. time.

Anonymous No. 197722


Anonymous No. 197723

martial arts with less rules are better than ones with more rules

Anonymous No. 197726

Somewhat unrelated but have you noticed how all these martial arts youtubers are boomer tier when it comes to interacting with the internet. Multiple people will change the name and tittle of their videos to gain more views. Ramsey Dewey just made a community post promoting a 2 year old video to get extra attention on it. I don't doubt that one of these guys would delete comments like that. Something about it rubs me the wrong way.

Anonymous No. 197740

You don't though. Karate masters condition their hands to the point they can punch hard objects full force

Anonymous No. 197741

Judo didnt invent anything.. grappling existed during the dawn of time and breaking a limb or choking someone existed just as long

The point is, time is limited, and no one wants to study something for years, risk their health and then end up in a worse position when you could have just done wrestling or bjj and gotten better results

It's like if you do aikido for self defence instead of boxing

Anonymous No. 197745

Judo doesn't take years to be effective.

Anonymous No. 197747

It discovered the triangle choke, kneebar and co-discovered the heel hook while a japanese judoka was developing it with a student that is claimed to be a bjj practitioner from brazil. There was a book written in 1905 called jiujitsu vs wrestling where a prominent judoka and prominent wrestler at the time share moves, they say a lot of the pins are very much the same, but when the judoka showed the armbar the wrestler mocked it saying something like, “I cant see how someone would hold my arm down if I just curled it” not an exact quote but still. There were also knee reaps and other submissions the judoka showed that the wrestler had never seen before

Anonymous No. 197749

Someone asked DonFrye if he would rather have taken bjj or judo and his answer was why would I take a watered down version of judo

Anonymous No. 197754

It does, there are multiple threads on this board just bashing it. And trying to disprove it. And other grappling arts, but it generally goes BJJ > Judo > wrestling in terms of who is getting shit on.

This is because nogi BJJ is more concerned with grappling and it's evolution than being some MA purist. Grappling is grappling, I'll take what works and discard the rest.

Wanking judo/wrestling like they are some perfect art with no holes is juvenile.

Anonymous No. 197755

>nogi BJJ is more concerned with grappling and it's evolution
People need to stop acting like nogi is the final frontier of grappling. Nogi has its own sport-specific idiosyncrasies just like every other grappling sport.

Anonymous No. 197757

Sure, I'll agree it's flawed but it's pushing that frontier. It needs to implement better stalling penalties for one.

As someone interested in grappling in it's entirety it's more interesting to me than hyper focusing on one art that's also bogged down with rules/Olympic committees. I can, for the most part, use whatever grappling techniques I fucking want in nogi.

Anonymous No. 197764

Yet you felt the need to call it nogi bjj

There's the issue, bjj tries to lay claim to everything everywhere all at once even retroactively
There's a reason Don johnaher uses Japanese terminology in his systems
He's not trying to be an esoteric fancy boy, it's because he drew from japanese inatructional literature and they already defined the positions

Anonymous No. 197769

>Theres no high levei judoka with any success in MMA
>n-no F-Fedor doesnt c-count.


Anonymous No. 197770

>the judo black belts all those champions have don’t count because…THEY JUST DONT OK

Anonymous No. 197773

It's not even just a matter of being a black belt.
Fedor was part of the russian national team for Judo.

You dont get into a national team in a Olympic sport as competitive as Judo by accident.

Anonymous No. 197778

I think people don't quite understand how much bigger judo is globally than BJJ
And the fact that judo is a subsidized sport, even in Brazil
If you are great at judo you can make a living doing judo, BJJ only has MMA as an outlet to make money

And earlier I saw another comment kind of ignorant saying that people don't train judo specifically for MMA
But everybody understands that when Gene LeBelle has a strong case of made for the Mount Rushmore of influential figures

Anonymous No. 197779


One of my go to day dreams is wondering what the landscape of martial arts in general would've looked like if Karo hadn't been so crazy. He had a good shot at being the GSP to LeBell and Gokor's Danaher.

Anonymous No. 197800

>Now you're parrotting kung fu
Nta but they aint wrong, clawing or targeting vital areas is against the rules & UFC historically had to tone shit down because a bunch of congressman were trying to get them shut down for being violent bloodsport so... Don't be retarded and act like head hunting is so much easier than grabbing at the throat or love handles.

Image not available


wanderlei silva.gif

Anonymous No. 197804

>listening to a faggot who has never ever fought
lol! There is a plethora of faggots on youtube who have zero competition footage, barely any sparring footage, zero accolades, zero medals, zero real world experience, but believe they are martial arts experts because they can bring a phone and a tripod to a gym. There is no point watching people like this, they offer nothing of value, and have no real experience beyond watching and circlejerking other youtube faggots.

Anonymous No. 197884

Why are you crying though?

Anonymous No. 197890

>mfw reading this thread
WTF? I expected better from you guys.

I box and wrestled in high school, but anyone that shits on judo is a fucking dumbass. Judo has consistently tested itself since day 1 and has been widely adapted for the CQC of armies like Defendu, Krav Maga and especially WW2 combatives.

Even fucking Joe Rogan who spouts idiocy plenty of times acknowledges how fucking good Judo can be.

Judo, wrestling, BJJ, whatever you train, so long as it's a type of wrestling/grappling that requires live practice and utilizing leverage & technique, it's a non-bullshit style.

This is the dumbest thread I've seen in a long while. I can list every fucking grappling style of its weaknesses like competitive judo not allowing leg attacks anymore and not allowing more groundwork/submissions or Greco-Roman not having leg attacks as well. Or BJJ doing butt scooting and not giving more points for takedowns/throws/trips.

No style will be 100% complete whether striking or grappling. It's why cross-training is a must and you take the best elements for your own use.

I don't deify martial arts founders but I have nothing but the upmost respect for Jigoro Kano. The dude took all the various techniques of Jujutsu styles, preserved them, and applied them to be tested as safe as possible. No Judo means no BJJ or Sambo (at least how we know it). I shudder to think about a world without Judo and its derivatives.

Anonymous No. 197891

People have this obsession with nogi as if outside of combat sports where everyone is gamifying the rules, people just go on fight naked. You can still do plenty judo grips on regular clothing. Couldn't believe how the dude went "what if i just zip up the jacket". Nigga a judoka can still grab a handful of that jacket and use it as a makeshift lapell no problem. He can also just grip collar, shoulder, elbow, neck, no problem also. The better argument would be about wrist control if anything.
fuck gi, or nogi.
Give me regular tshirt grappling

Anonymous No. 197893

My dad told me something that kind of stuck with me when it came to gripping and when someone has no shirt on. He told me to sink your grip into their pecs, traps, neck muscles, and scapula. Literally dig your fingers into their muscle and grab onto bone.

This is pretty hardcore and I wouldn't recommend doing this in Randori as you'll probably end up hurting someone. But, good to know.

Anonymous No. 197894

I dunno.
I see the logic in it, but the human body is kinda too slippery to do that kind of shit.
In a scenario where, yes everyone is shirtlesss, you're probably better off going for underhooks, overhooks and whatnot.
The usual stuff.

Anonymous No. 197895

There are 2 main lineages of Submission Grappling:

- Judo which in itself spawned off BJJ and Sambo

- Catch-as-catch-can wrestling which was partially derived from the Indo-Persian wrestling of Pehlvani which has submissions and holds from Malla Yuddha as well as a synthesis of the folk wrestling variations in Britain and Ireland

BJJ and Sambo also took from Catch. Mitsuyo Maeda competed in CACC tournaments and most likely incorporated lessons learned from it and later George Gracie (the forgotten brother) cross-trained with Catch guys in Brazil and even competed against the founder of Luta Livre (Brazilian style of catch without pins), Euclydes Hatem. Takeo Yano, one of the main pioneers of BJJ's development also competed and trained alongside Hatem.

Sambo's leglocks were from Catch which was well documented. And the obvious judo influence is there (along with other grappling styles that the Russians were exposed to).

There's instances of Catch wrestlers trouncing Judoka as well as Judoka trouncing Catch wrestlers. In the end, it's all grappling and only a fucking moron would vaunt the superiority of 1 interpretation of wrestling over the other. All grapplers and styles interacted and cross-fertilized throughout the 19th and 20th centuries. This is still evident today with how US BJJ infused collegiate in their matwork.

Anonymous No. 197897

I mean yeah because that's where I go to train.....I can't go to a judo gym and do the same stuff. I'm actually 100% for just calling it submission grappling moving forward. I don't care about muh styles, legacy, or honour or whatever. I just want to grapple people with subs with as few faggy committees deciding what I can and can't do as possible. Currently that is nogi BJJ.

Anonymous No. 197900


Anonymous No. 197901

Also I forgot to add that even Luta Livre incorporated Judo (and obviously BJJ from their exchanges and challenge matches) via Roberto Leitao.

So in Brazil, you have 2 styles that were created from the 2 main lineages of Submission Grappling I listed.

With BJJ, Judo was the primarily element with a dash of Catch here and there. With Luta Livre, it was the inverse, Catch wrestling was the base with later infusions from Judo & BJJ.

Anonymous No. 197903

>the human body is kinda too slippery to do that kind of shit.
No, it really isn't. Not if you have good grip strength.

Anonymous No. 197904

Explain how one actually pressure trains grabbing someone's fucking collarbone/ribs and throwing them. It can be hard enough to get throws normally and you are somehow going to plunge your hands deep into someone's flesh while they are grappling you?

Image not available


Basically Just Judo.jpg

Anonymous No. 197905

the facts are in at this point
bjj is judo, it's not and never will be a distinct art
they can choose to not follow kodokan guidelines but that doesn't change what it is because judo is THE WAY
there's a sport called brazilian jiujitsu, just like there's a sport we would call olympic judo, and there's kosen judo, and freestyle judo, but the art itself is judo all the same
the rules of the sport simply informs the areas you focus your training, it's impossible to be great at everything all at once so you need to pick something to start with
say people stayed in their prime health for 50 years and could really dedicate that time to training, the guy doing "judo" would start with his stand up first, the guy doing bjj would start with his newaza, and in 50 years time they'd be identical grapplers because they would've had enough time to master it all. The title you give yourself is just an expression of your specialty. Different routes headed towards the same peak.
and as judo is a WAY under the principles of minimum effort, maximum efficiency, and mutual welfare and benefit. BJJ still follows the same principles, it follows the way of judo and never deviated because it is judo.

I wish I could find the supply of copium pedro valente is huffing though, lmao his lies and story changes every time it gets challenged and people come with receipts
>helio learned judo from the japanese
>actually his brother learned it from the japanese and he learned it from his brother
>actually they were both self taught by watching it
>actually they invented it
the current lie?
>actually they were historians dedicated to preserving pre-meji era samurai fighting techniques and THAT is what BJJ really is
0 evidence samurai ever practiced any martial art called jiujitsu because there was no such thing yet. Kano is the one that originally assembled various grappling techniques into a formalized system, so now the cope is well ackshually kano didn't do that, the gracies are the ones that did it

Anonymous No. 197907

I'm far from a Gracie nuthugger and I loathe BJJ dickriders, but I disagree with this as well.

BJJ derived itself from judo groundwork and submissions but in a street fighting and Vale Tudo format. It dealt with dealing with boxing (the early Gracie and BJJ pioneers also cross-trained in boxing like a picture of the late Carlson Gracie Sr.) and strikes in general when closing the distance.

There was always Judo infusions throughout BJJ's historical development. It's well attested that not only did Japanese emigrants like Geo Omori, Takeo Yano, and the Ono brothers were instrumental in spreading newaza via judo, there were Brazilians who interacted with judoka like the Ezekiel choke (sode guruma jime) named after a Brazilian judoka who competed in the Olympitcs, Ezequiel Paraguassu.

Oswaldo Alves and George Mehdi both went to Japan and trained under legendary judoka like Masahiko Kimura and Isao Okano; both of whom knew newaza quite well. In fact, if you look at Okano's Vital Judo Grappling Techniques book, it's very similar to BJJ ground-fighting. When they returned to Brazil, they transmitted what they learned.

Even the late Rolls Gracie Sr. cross-trained in judo (as well as sambo and freestyle wrestling) to develop his ground-game. The triangle choke was popularized from the guard after Rolls saw a judo book that depicted it.

However, what really differentiates BJJ from Judo is the transitions. People always harp about Position before Submission in what defines BJJ. I disagree. In order to go from A to C, the B is essential and the way the Brazilians developed it is what makes it distinctly their contribution.

Judo did not test out concepts like ground-and-pound, dirty boxing, and other rough methods because it was against their cultural mindset and not how their fighting styles was. Even judo's atemi waza (which is sadly ignored) did not update itself to things like Muay cut kicks to the thighs/calves which can paralyze movement.

Anonymous No. 197909

I think you're agreeing with me
as I said the sport informs the way it's practiced. the supposed bjj practitioners weren't doing anything proprietary, they were studying and using judo just in a different environment

and of course its impossible to see what the day to day training room was really like but I would imagine 100 or more years ago they were practicing atemi waza more too since this stuff predates things like kickboxing and even karate for that matter and those skills had to come from somewhere

Anonymous No. 197910


The Gracies, the Japanese emigrants, and Brazilians who learned early judo were in constant challenge matches throughout the early half of the 20th century. This gave them invaluable experience in testing out what techniques would work and how to address the context of struggling with a guy raining down rabbit punches and elbows as you struggle to get a grip on him. Hence, the Transition is what is missing in Judo compared to BJJ.

The old school BJJ actually had a lot of stand-up grappling and self-defense techniques very akin to judo's goshin jutsu. And of course, takedowns and throws compared to modern butt-scooting. Whatever range of combat and what type of weapons (fist, kick, elbow, knee) is being utilized by an opponent, BJJ honed itself to know how to defend one's self when setting themselves up for the Positioning so that they can jockey for the opportunity to slap on a joint-lock or choke. Meanwhile, while their opponent is bitterly resisting in-between the positioning and submission phases, they can always de-transition back to a course of better advantage for their safety so they can seek the opportunity to get their back or catch an exposed limb.

Anonymous No. 197911

I do agree on many points. Even Deoclecio Paulo, a disciple of Oswaldo Fadda, one of the major non-Gracie red belts who advocated foot-locks was quoted in saying that the only difference of BJJ and Judo were the rule sets.

I'm just being nuanced that BJJ took the newaza and submission aspect of Judo, commercialized the hell out of it and shaped it for the rough-and-tumble environment of Brazil's machoism.

What frustrates me about Judo is that somebody needs to revamp the atemi-waza curriculum and make sure it's practiced. Yeah judo as a sport is primarily going to be a focus, but the self-defense aspects shouldn't be neglected. Nihon adapted Muay Thai and mixed it with Karate, Kenpo, & Boxing (all of which are non-Japanese origin as well since the first 2 are from Okinawa which was its own thing) to create Japanese Kickboxing. And they've produced some phenomenal Kickboxers (and Nak Muays since a lot of J-kickboxers go to Thailand to compete) so they incorporate stuff like chap koh (Muay clinching/neck-wrestling with knees and elbows); things judo never encountered before as well as shin kicks which inflict more damage than ones utilizing the foot, instep, heel, balls, and toes.

Anonymous No. 197915

The collier brothers bill themselves at being "Not Your Momma's Judo" so you get to see them trying standing stuff, but its very far from the classic atemi waza you see in the old curriculum.

it's also y'kknow very "made for movies" stuff seeing they have direct contant with stunt people (they worked on the John Wick series)

Anonymous No. 197916

the way it all works out for me is
judo is the martial art
submission grappling is a skill within the martial art
BJJ is a sport variant of judo
you can do submission grappling without any of the judo framework, and that's what guys in MMA do by the way, they aren't doing BJJ. They might be learning to grapple from someone holding BJJ rank but they aren't really doing it, they're just learning some skills from it
and you can do go BJJ with no formal BJJ training too in any division you want. College wrestler? go sign up for expert division in BJJ, you're allowed to do that, in fact you're expected to do that. Which I think is the proof that BJJ is the defined by competition rules and not the art

more and more people are rejecting the politics and the lies, and I give credit to a lot of brazilians refusing to wear that red bar on their belts which becomes more common. Declaring themselves as students of the art holistically, not this weird niche variant of it
if you get your black belt from murillo at unity you receive a plain black mizuno belt. If you want to wear it to compete in IBJJF you need to wrap white athletic tape around one end because they demand the bar, not the art.
I reject the bar also and just use a plain belt. I'm never going to get a certified kodokan judo black belt because I really don't want to go through the whole process, and I could register my rank with IBJJF because my gym is now chartered with them but fuck that, I don't need to pay a fee to some random assholes to have them recognize me.
I would consider myself a student of the art of judo even though I'm not officially moving through their track

Anonymous No. 197917

Lots of people modernized judo techniques with striking like Nagasu Do.

You can still retain the atemi waza, but add in stuff from bare-knuckle boxing, Muay Thai, Lethwei, etc. that Judo did not encounter or was familiar with in the 1880s to 1940s.

Anonymous No. 197919

Fedor is the true successor of Judo's Atemi Waza.
Big heavy collision with the overhead right to force the kuzushi, trip them up, pin them and then destroy the opposition with ground and pound

Anonymous No. 197920

Prime Fedor was truly a force of nature. When he went to the Netherlands for 3 months to train under Johan Vos, he learned invaluable techniques. I mean look at his fight with Cro Cop; you had Fedor launch a high kick while CC went into the guard; that match is the quintessential essence of what MMA is.

Before Fedor injured his back and declined, he would use that overhand right (and later Dutch-style low kicks and knees thanks to Vos) to chip away at opponents and then close the distance. He was quite tactical and explosive in RINGS and PRIDE.

Anonymous No. 197921

Why do you faggots still argue about individual martial arts when MMA has existed for decades? Are you guys retarded?

Anonymous No. 197922

>Why care about boxing?
>Why bother with Muay Thai?
>Why should Greco-Roman Wrestling be around?
>Why even have Freestyle Wrestling?
Because get this, different sports focus on different things.

That's how stupid you sound. I love MMA because you can combine everything from various styles but the individual rule sets and competition for grappling and striking have their own audiences. MMA striking does not have the caliber of boxing footwork, combos, and head defense because competitors have to worry about takedowns as well as kicks and clinching. Greco-Roman and Freestyle is about control and executing takedowns to have the opponent out of bounds or holds on the mat.

Judo, Sport Sambo and BJJ (barring nogi obviously) all require a form of jacket which makes them distinct in sport. Judo has throws & sweeps as well as pins, chokes, and armlocks. Sport Sambo allows everything Judo has (but omits chokes) while retaining leglocks. BJJ allows every type of joint-lock, choke, and pain compliance moves but pins don't count (though you can always modify them for a submission if done properly) and don't score much on the throws/takedown aspect.

Anonymous No. 197925

Except nobody's talking about them as an individual sport but pitting them directly against each other as if we didn't already get the answer to all those questions over 30 years ago.

Anonymous No. 197927

you're not saying what I think you're saying, right?
you're not saying "bjj is the best because royce gracies brother money laundered from investors by hand picking random assholes for his brother to fight", right?

Anonymous No. 197928

Your eternal BJJ seethe has caused irrepairable brain damage.

It's not called "BJJ" it's called "MMA" you fucking retard.

Anonymous No. 197929

the mixed in mixed martial arts is referring to a mixed rules set so various martial arts can compete against each other, it's not referring to literally mixing martial arts together so they're indistinguishable
even today all these years later MMA fighters still have distinct styles and specialties they leverage against each other

Anonymous No. 197931

>it's not referring to literally mixing martial arts together so they're indistinguishable
It is in fact referring to that. Holy shit, you are one delusional motherfucker.

Anonymous No. 197933

Except martial arts change and adapt to the times. 1950s BJJ has none of the extensive guardwork and sweeps that modern BJJ has. Muay Thai originally allowed groin shots up until the 1980s and in the 1960s/1970's the rules didn't allow except for a few seconds in clinching.

What some of us are discussing is updating Judo (and I want leg attacks to be brought back) since its striking application is hardly practiced and it only utilized 1800s Jujutsu atemi.

If you got nothing to contribute to this thread, why the fuck are you even posting? There's a fuckton of other threads in /xs/ for you to do.

As much as I dislike Rorion and BJJ propaganda and posturing, Royce did get handpicked opponents when Gerard Gordeau was a VERY dangerous Kyokushin karateka (he was only toted as a savateur since he competed in it) and Ken Shamrock was a legit catch wrestler who underestimated Royce (even admitted it in his autobiography).

Yeah there could've been others in 1993 and 1994 that had they competed, Royce would've definitely been in trouble and even defeated. But while the early UFCs were meant to showcase BJJ to the US and international audiences, it also vindicated what previous generations of grapplers like Gene Lebell talked about how groundfighting and submissions were overlooked in favor of striking. There are even judo articles in Black Belt magazine from the 1970s that comment on how newaza was being neglected in favor of spectacular throws; so people weren't completely in the dark about how vital grappling on the ground was.

Anonymous No. 197934

Meh typo. I meant to say didn't get handpicked.

Royce gets cred for going out there and taking on guys who were dangerous strikers (Gordeau knocked out that sumo wrestler's tooth) or leglocked by Ken who was clearly stronger. And even against fellow grapplers like judoka and traditional Jujutsuka Remco Pardoel who was several inches taller and heavier.

Anonymous No. 197947

Your dad's a fucking idiot. Bullshido fantasy at its finest

Anonymous No. 197949

it was rigged

Anonymous No. 197952

My dad's pretty smart about these things actually.

Anonymous No. 197954

Jujutsu and judo influenced catch too. George Hackenschmidt even recommended wrestlers to learn Jujutsu trips. All wrestling styles learn from one another.

Anonymous No. 197955

My beef with Jiu-Jitieros that drink the Gracie Kool Aid is that just say, "Shut up and train" when you poke holes in Gracie myths. I especially hate how Rufino dos Santos got jumped and severely crippled by Helio, Carlos and George yet their apologists claim it was "a mistake".

Anonymous No. 197956

Gonna second the other anon and say your dads a retard and has no idea what he’s talking about

Anonymous No. 197957

pedro "copemeister" valente says grand master helio never participated in such a cowardly attack and it was just made up to slander him and the family name

all the witnesses I guess were lying too

Anonymous No. 197959

And the various news articles from Brazil. It's kinda embarrassing in the Internet age to see BJJ still spread their lies when people can do research. That and BJJ figures acting like thugs.

Carlos Sr.'s daughter Reila in her book about her father at least acknowledges how very flawed her father and family are. She even mentions Carlos' infidelity like scamming a friend to let Carlos sleep with the dude's wife.

Anonymous No. 197960

They’re Brazilian, not sure what you all expected.

Anonymous No. 197961

No, I think both of you are wrong. Now that I'm really thinking about it, it just makes sense. Grab your pectoral muscle by putting your fingers into your armpit and thumb over the muscle. You can grab that. You can give an underhook and latch your fingers over the top of the delt or along the collarbone and trap muscle. You can snag the splenius capitis muscle that runs diagonal on the neck. You can grab most of the joints and muscles of the arms and legs.

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197962

Like helio being a card carrying member of the fascist party of Brazil and it always makes me lol that people have that picture of him on the wall standing in front of that red flag with the black lightning bolt
Its no coincidence that was the logo of the jiujitsu federation he started
It's no coincidence the black belts have a red bar on them

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197966

>He told me to sink your grip into their pecs

Anonymous No. 197967

>The annoying spicy opinion guy has an annoying spicy opinion
Shooting in a street fight is pretty crazy.

Anonymous No. 197969

I guess if you’re fighting a turbo lard but otherwise it’s retarded

Anonymous No. 197971

This may sound weird, but what got me on him is his complaint video about the pensador from Keysi fighting or DNA or whatever. Now hear me out. In his video, he describes how the pensador sucks because it's not as good as deflecting punches from the front as having your hands out in a traditional guard, right. But I got curious and went researching about it (had never heard of it before), and I found out that's not the rationale for the pensador. If you go to the source, the pensador is designed to protect your head from attacks from all angles; as in, it assumes you're surrounded and being attacked from the front, back and sides. Which is obviously a situation where the traditional guard would not be as useful and the more instinctive half-fetal pose is actually helpful. Basically he was judging it from outside of its context, saying that it wasn't good for dueling and therefore is bad overall. I don't know if the pensador is actually good at defending against multiple attackers, but at least it needs to be judged on that basis. And if I found that in five minutes on youtube, why didn't he?

Anonymous No. 197983

>bjj is judo, it's not and never will be a distinct art... but sambo is!
LMAO, feel the ressentiment

Anonymous No. 197992

How many people has he "thrown by their love handles"
Apart from your mother

Image not available



Anonymous No. 197995

>It discovered...
Ridiculous hubris by judo faggots. Pankration had joint locks and choke holds 3000 years before.

Anonymous No. 197999

>why didn’t he
You already know the answer, he’s a retarded fag who makes clickbait, not well researched content

Anonymous No. 198015

Are you talking about this exchange between Leonard and Higashi? I have Leonard's book on catch wrestling and it's really good.

I like how they exchanged techniques and compared notes. Grappling is the best martial arts form; no bullshit and we're all utilizing the same concepts of torque, tension, technique, and conditioning. You can't Bullshido a grappling style because the very essence requires active training with a resisting partner who's doing the same to you.

Anonymous No. 198016

Yeah nothing is new under the sun. Even ancient Pankration had toe kicks that the Chinese and Okinawans utilize.

Jujutsu and later Judo however codified and organized various submissions and holds that they had for centuries and later picked up stuff from Japanese who globe-trotted and were exposed to other styles. Cross-pollination is a must.

In the late 1800's to early 1900's, it was the golden age of various wrestlers from different countries competing against one another. Mitsuyo Maeda did catch wrestling as well as challenge matches utilizing judo. Yukio Tani did the same in Britain.

Indian pehlwani like Gobor Goho and the Great Gama showcased how surprisingly effective their wrestling was when they defeated Westerners.

This was the age of Sorakichi Matsuda, Ad Santel, Frank Gotch, Ed "Stranger" Lewis, Johannes Josefsson, Stanislaus Zbyszko, Imam Bux, Cour-Dereli, Ahmed Madrali, Yusuf "Terrible Turk" Ismail. All these guys and countless others helped shape what would be submission grappling. Western, MENA, South Asian, and Japanese, grappling is indiscriminate. The truth is found when you engage against your fellow wrestler and know first-hand what sort of man he is and what shaped them as they struggle against one another.

It's all wrestling under the sun; different labels and approaches but in the end, we all throw each other to the ground and/or roll to secure a favorable position for submission. We're supposed to be better than this dick-waving and shit-posting.

Anonymous No. 198021

People who do sambo always acknowledge that sambo is basically directly from judo, people from bjj somehow got the idea that it comes more from catch wrestling, which is just not true, the only thing that is close to it is the ruleset

Anonymous No. 198024

>people from bjj somehow got the idea that it comes more from catch wrestling
Wait, what? This is news to me. BJJ used to distance themselves from Catch and Luta Livre in the past because they always toted they took ancient Japanese Jujutsu and refined it. Catch was associated with worked matches because of pro rasslin and Luta Livre was looked down upon as a low class sport.

The funny thing is, both George and Helio trained in Catch. Oswaldo Gracie was also reported to have been involved in Catch as well.

Anonymous No. 198026

Blessed and based post.
If I had a time machine, the turn of the 20th century grappling scene would definitely be one of my first stops.

Anonymous No. 198030

Same here. I'm also an amateur historian and I like the Gilded Age of the 1890's to June 1914 (before World War One broke out). The French called 1871 (the end of the Franco-Prussian War) to 1914 (right before WWI began) as La Belle Époque. The advent of steamship lines really allowed greater ease of international travel and that's why so many ideas and peoples were exchanged at a pace unheard of before.

I did folkstyle wrestling in high school. I never did judo myself but I recognize it as a wrestling that has handles (i.e. the gi). BJJ is submission grappling that either utilizes the gi or without it. Sambo is a mix of Judo and other disciplines that the Soviets finely tuned as a battlefield art and as a combat sport. Sumo, Mongolian Bokh, Indian pehlwani all fascinate me because I recognize the technical applications despite never partaking in those sports. As grapplers, we're all one big clan; distantly related because since the dawn of humankind, people have grappled with one another in sport or self-defense.

In the end, no matter which grappling style wins, everybody comes out the victor because leverage + technique + body mechanics is proven time and time again and we can all learn from each other. Only McDojo black belts and Bullshido con artists who've never done a bear crawl or ripe climbing in their lives or taken a punch (I do boxing) talk shit about each other. With grappling, we prove it on the mats.

Anonymous No. 198034

>BJJ is submission grappling that either utilizes the gi or without it
BJJ is gi based as much as judo is
You don't rank up in BJJ without wearing the gi, and the entire rule set of nogi grappling is different
This goes to an earlier point about BJJ trying to claim things retroactively, like ADCC for example which is what launched the nogi trend. That's not a bjj competition, its a grappling competition
BJJ guys were still showing up to fights with a gi on well after 1998
BJJ sellers are just trying to capitalize on a popular trend

Very Korean of them actually
"Yeah actually we invented that"

Anonymous No. 198038

Yeah BJJ historically always toted on how the gi was an essential part of their art: because it costs money to purchase it as well as using it as a weapon against opponents (like Royce's gi choke against Ken Shamrock). That's why BJJ was typically the sport of the middle and upper classes in Brazilian society while Luta Livre was looked as a poor man's sport since it didn't require it.

I'm no defender of Gracie or BJJ wankery, but at least the IBJJF embraced no-gi championship formats. BJJ constantly adapts and adds from other grappling styles and formats. ADCC did indeed popularize the concept of no-gi submission grappling to the masses; BJJ was smart enough to capitalize on it.

Anonymous No. 198048

I will more readily defend gracie jiujitsu than I will BJJ as an institution
At least they have some codified moves and a curriculum to follow
BJJ being so nebulous is exactly why it sucks now, it just chases trends
A few years ago everyone was doing x guard, then it was bolos, then it was worm guard, then the second bolo era with crab rides, then leglocks, then it was body locks, now it's going in the direction of wrestling with cradles and wrestle ups

And it's just people always behind trying to play catch up, but the time "the masses" start to get good at something the pros have moved on to something else. The result is a lot of mediocre to bad grapplers left in the wake of this because nobody is spending enough time to actually get good at anything. they get halfway decent and then drop it for something else.

It's like Gordon said a while ago people are just now starting to get good at the leglocks we stopped doing 5 years ago
The black belts are simultaneously the highest level they've even been and the lowest
It wasn't that long ago there were no fat black belts
I look around now and see donuts all over the place with that strap, and I'm not talking about older guys that let themselves go a bit, I'm talking about guys that have never been fit in their lives

Anonymous No. 198051

Hope he reads this

Anonymous No. 198060

Better than BJJ.
t. bjj 1 year.

Anonymous No. 198062

>People who do sambo always acknowledge that sambo is basically directly from judo
How do you know this? How many russian samboist friends do you have?
t. russian

Anonymous No. 198067

BJJ and sambo are not judo no matter how long time ago they broke away from it. Sambo is actually much closer to judo (to the point when you can see how indicated in the athlete's regalia "Master of Sports in judo AND sambo") and it is still not judo.
>People who do sambo always acknowledge that sambo is basically directly from judo
So the only thing BJJ guys must to do to gain your respect is to repent, to admit they are derived from judo, to ask mighty judo for forgiveness, to stand on knees and scream "We derived from judo!!!"? LMAO

Anonymous No. 198068

>the only thing BJJ guys must to do to gain your respect is to repent, to admit they are derived from judo
sounds pretty reasonable to me. You'll never be taken seriously if you're built on a house of lies

Anonymous No. 198070

>to admit they are derived from judo
Don't they already do this nowadays? Because this isn't the 90's anymore and people have exposed the holes in Gracie myths. Non-Gracie Brazilians as well as Japanese-Brazilians have been discovered as shaping BJJ's development.

Choque by Roberto Pedeiera has given quite of documented evidence that dismantles the whole "ZOO-ZITSU WAS BASED ON SAMURAI ART THAT WE PERFECTED BECAUSE THE BIG HULKING JAPONES RELIED TOO MUCH ON STRENGTH AND JUST HELD PEOPLE DOWN INSTEAD OF SCRAMBLING FOR SUBMISSIONS THAT WE BRAZILIANS INVENTED LEVERAGE AND GUARDWORK" that got peddled for quite a while until even the BJJ community realized it was too much.

Anonymous No. 198079

AV got 4trannies and judotards seething like usual, you all fell for it retarded faggots

Anonymous No. 198080

Guess it's a good thing we're discussing it here and not on his page where he'll make money on it

Anonymous No. 198102

Literally loled

Anonymous No. 198103

>”*most retarded thing imainable*”
>shut the fuck up retard

Image not available



Anonymous No. 198119

Whoa WTF I love BJJ now!!!

Anonymous No. 198127

>You'll never be taken seriously if you're built on a house of lies
No practitioner ever cares. No freestyle wrestler, no greco roman wrestler, no samboist, no BJJ practitioner care about history of their sport, they just do it. Only some nerds that are shit at wrestling but compensate it by knowing dates of birth of some coach from the past

Anonymous No. 198149

>scamming a friend to let Carlos sleep with the dude's wife
Lmao it seems like the dude stuck his dick in anything that moved
According to his Wiki page, 21 children, 106 grandchildren, 128 great-grandchildren

Anonymous No. 198150

I wouldn't say it's the same thing exactly, but it pretty much exactly fits the definition of a fork, same with Sambo
>In software engineering, a project fork happens when developers take a copy of source code from one software package and start independent development on it, creating a distinct and separate piece of software. The term often implies not merely a development branch, but also a split in the developer community; as such, it is a form of schism.

Anonymous No. 198158

But dick waving and shitposting is so fun

Anonymous No. 198168

NTA you're responding to, but you're right that while training should be the primary focus of whatever grappling style you practice, the Gracies have notoriously lied, omitted, downplayed, and doctored the history of BJJ's development. They even omit George Gracie who was actually the best fighter out of the 5 original brothers, but they had a serious falling out due to opinions on competing against Luta Livre/Catch as well as money issues.

You're right that only autists care about "OMG! IT'S NOT KIMURA IT'S UDE-GARAMI THAT SUPERIOR NIPPONIC DESU CREATED!" However, it's incredibly disrespectful and insulting when the Gracies and other Brazilians are making money off of Jigoro Kano's gift to the world; Judo schools are run for non-profit and do not charge anywhere near as much as BJJ academies do.

>inb4 Judoka
Nah, I'm the ex-folkstyle wrestler and current boxer. I'm an amateur hopologist ever since I read Donn Draeger's Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts and love the intricate backstory and development of combative sport whether striking or grappling. I'm just rolling my eyes at these type of threads because it really reeks of single digit IQ knuckle-dragging that the early Internet used to have when more evidence and facts are around today for people to learn.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for BJJ on how it popularized groundfighting and submissions to the masses as well as being an intricate core of MMA. I just don't drink the "99% of fights all end in the ground" bullshit or "The evil Japanese kept their ancient samurai fighting skills secret until the noble Gracies gave it to non-Japanese" narrative that got peddled for decades.

Absolutely. It's a derivative. It sourced itself from Judo, but both Sambo and BJJ became its own thing though Sambo and BJJ received transfusions of Judo tech long after both styles were conceptualized because Judo itself also adapted and changed with the times.

Anonymous No. 198184

>That's why BJJ was typically the sport of the middle and upper classes in Brazilian society while Luta Livre was looked as a poor man's sport since it didn't require it.
How terrible was Brazil that the ability to purchase a single garment was the difference between wealth and poverty?

Anonymous No. 198187

>steamship and time travel
My dream as well

>a single garment
that is over priced around 400% to 600% above what is should be

Anonymous No. 198189

Abject poverty

Anonymous No. 198252

>BJJ was typically the sport of the middle and upper classes in Brazilian society
While that is correct, I don't think the gi is the reason why. I've read somewhere that the first generation of Gracies intentionally tried to gatekeep BJJ from the poors. Probably to avoid associations with street thugs but that's just me speculating

Anonymous No. 198269

Going back to helio being a fascist
As a gracie he believed he was white because he inherited a Scottish surname from some unknown ancestor
He didn't want the low class subhuman with dark skin to learn his ways
No blacks
No women either

He was a malignant racist, but also completely delusional because he wasn't even white himself

Anonymous No. 198273

Helio was an integralist. I'm not super well versed in Brazilian politics, but from what I've been able to find, Integralists were basically fascists but not necessarily racist, the name itself refers to integration of all races and ethnicities into a single cohesive society
He also had at least one notable black student, Valdemar Santana

Anonymous No. 198274

But on a personal level he most definitely was a racist, everyone who knew him said as much
Explicitly no blacks were allowed in the gracie academy

Anonymous No. 198282

Does this guy even do martial arts? He looks like he can do 20 pushups max while weighing <170 lbs....

Anonymous No. 198294

I know quite a few judoka who have absolutely zero cross training who would still absolutely demolish this nerd.

Anonymous No. 198342

It is so over!

This fag definitely lurks here, this is not the first or last time he makes a video that happens to be about the topic we've been arguing about

Anonymous No. 198344

>This fag definitely lurks here, this is not the first or last time he makes a video that happens to be about the topic we've been arguing about
stfu and buy an ad, your videos are shite